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Re: THOUGHTS re: stranger-danger; midges-midgets
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Re: [NABOKV-L] THOUGHTS re: stranger-danger; midges-midgetsStan K-B [ JM: When we consider everyday language as "playful and inventive", or depersonalize "verbal coincidences", we are neglecting the possibility that what is then happening lies only in the eyes of the beholder - not in any word per se.I'm sure SKB is jesting when suggesting a "strong metaphorical force at work"] : Jansy: you miss a few basic points. Languages were evolving over many millennia before they were written or regulated[...] It is this amazing "untutored" everyday SPOKEN process that reveals the playful INVENTIVE metaphorical aspects of language to which I was referring[...] Saussure's use of the word "arbitrary" in designating the nature of the link between spoken-written "d-o-g" and <that-4-legged-whoof-whoofing-creature-over-there> is really unarguable and undisputable. Denying this arbitrariness in the MAPPING is to push linguistics back into pre-scientific dark ages. This arbitrariness remains an OBSERVED MYSTERY rather than ANY proferred EXPLANATION[...] Where inventive playful metaphor enters the equation is WHAT WE (as everyday language USERS) DO WITH THE NOUN 'DOG' ONCE IT HAS BEEN WIDELY ACCEPTED INTO a PARTICULAR SPEECH-COMMUNITY [...]
JM: There is a slight misunderstanding. I was never in disagreement concerning Saussure's observation about the arbitrary relation between signifier and signifieds. What I meant was that, since I cannot see "language" operating like non-anthropomorphic deities who are playful and inventive nor, in a similar acception, understand "a strong metaphorical force at work" without involving an original "mover", the wording of your message confused me.
Now I see that you didn't mean to isolate this "force" from humanity, but you attributed it to the "spoken process" through which languages were evolving over the millennia and were incorporated by a speech community.
Thank you for the explanation and examples related to the "arbitrary" and "derivative" aspects related to the word "dog".
There is still something I cannot grasp, though. For me, such "derivatives",themselves, are signifiers and therefore, they retain a measure of "arbitrariness", too.
BTW: I enjoyed Penelope Fitzgerald's ( The Gate of Angels) hillarious debate (in her novel it took place in the early nineties in Cambridge U.) over the existence of a "soul" and how different people saw the same thing according to their way of thinking. It was suggested, then, that "things" should rather be named "thinks"...
Jerry Friedman:[...]Though Nabokov certainly said he believed in the supernatural, I don't know what he believed about similarities between words, and I have to resist thinking he believed what Shade believed.
JM: Indeed, the similarities between words leading us to verbal day-dreams are encountered all the time - as are Shade's plexed artistry with correlated patterns and bobolinks.
Eerie coincidences instill a sense of awe in me ( a religious response, perhaps?) but I don't know if one can "reasonably" generalize them into some sort of cosmic design. Nevertheless, when these occurrences can be exploited through fiction, as VN did, this widens our scope to explore them without common-sense,rational prejudices. Let them hold sway to carry us on a magic carpet...
Andrea Pitzer pondered "the line John Shade uses while making a bloody mess of himself shaving in Pale Fire (lines 899-900): "...some day I must set free/The Newport Frill inveterate in me...", mentioned frill-necked lizards ( "I'm sure Nabokov loved his reptilian reference"). She found out that frills also describe a "decorative, fluted paper "sock" that is slipped over a protruding meat bone, such as in a crown roast." and it may be synonimous to papillote. She considers it lovely " not only because of the relationship between papillote and papillon ... but also because to bake something en papillote is to cook food prepared by wrapping it inside paper, which steams it. From the same book: "At the table, the paper is slit and peeled back to reveal the food."
JM: I also wondered about various related items, like the examples of "stripped to the waist" in TRLSK. I'll try to connect these strange references to the frills-papillotes which, after being peeled back - like Aunt Maud's skinscarf, or a foreskin - reveal a secret.
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JM: There is a slight misunderstanding. I was never in disagreement concerning Saussure's observation about the arbitrary relation between signifier and signifieds. What I meant was that, since I cannot see "language" operating like non-anthropomorphic deities who are playful and inventive nor, in a similar acception, understand "a strong metaphorical force at work" without involving an original "mover", the wording of your message confused me.
Now I see that you didn't mean to isolate this "force" from humanity, but you attributed it to the "spoken process" through which languages were evolving over the millennia and were incorporated by a speech community.
Thank you for the explanation and examples related to the "arbitrary" and "derivative" aspects related to the word "dog".
There is still something I cannot grasp, though. For me, such "derivatives",themselves, are signifiers and therefore, they retain a measure of "arbitrariness", too.
BTW: I enjoyed Penelope Fitzgerald's ( The Gate of Angels) hillarious debate (in her novel it took place in the early nineties in Cambridge U.) over the existence of a "soul" and how different people saw the same thing according to their way of thinking. It was suggested, then, that "things" should rather be named "thinks"...
Jerry Friedman:[...]Though Nabokov certainly said he believed in the supernatural, I don't know what he believed about similarities between words, and I have to resist thinking he believed what Shade believed.
JM: Indeed, the similarities between words leading us to verbal day-dreams are encountered all the time - as are Shade's plexed artistry with correlated patterns and bobolinks.
Eerie coincidences instill a sense of awe in me ( a religious response, perhaps?) but I don't know if one can "reasonably" generalize them into some sort of cosmic design. Nevertheless, when these occurrences can be exploited through fiction, as VN did, this widens our scope to explore them without common-sense,rational prejudices. Let them hold sway to carry us on a magic carpet...
Andrea Pitzer pondered "the line John Shade uses while making a bloody mess of himself shaving in Pale Fire (lines 899-900): "...some day I must set free/The Newport Frill inveterate in me...", mentioned frill-necked lizards ( "I'm sure Nabokov loved his reptilian reference"). She found out that frills also describe a "decorative, fluted paper "sock" that is slipped over a protruding meat bone, such as in a crown roast." and it may be synonimous to papillote. She considers it lovely " not only because of the relationship between papillote and papillon ... but also because to bake something en papillote is to cook food prepared by wrapping it inside paper, which steams it. From the same book: "At the table, the paper is slit and peeled back to reveal the food."
JM: I also wondered about various related items, like the examples of "stripped to the waist" in TRLSK. I'll try to connect these strange references to the frills-papillotes which, after being peeled back - like Aunt Maud's skinscarf, or a foreskin - reveal a secret.
Search archive with Google:
http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=site:listserv.ucsb.edu&HL=en
Contact the Editors: mailto:nabokv-l@utk.edu,nabokv-l@holycross.edu
Visit Zembla: http://www.libraries.psu.edu/nabokov/zembla.htm
View Nabokv-L policies: http://web.utk.edu/~sblackwe/EDNote.htm
Visit "Nabokov Online Journal:" http://www.nabokovonline.com
Manage subscription options: http://listserv.ucsb.edu/