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Fw: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3428 PALE FIRE
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----- Original Message -----
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 9:36 PM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3428
>
> pynchon-l-digest Sunday, July 20 2003 Volume 02 : Number
3428
>
> On Sun, 2003-07-20 at 01:41, Tim Strzechowski wrote:
> > >> To what degree does "Pale Fire" (i.e. the Shade poem) comment on
"cultural elitism"? How
> > >> does it compare to the commentary Pynchon makes in Vineland?
> >
> > >> Does Nabokov use the character of Charles Kinbote as a means of
exploring and commenting
> > >> on "elitism" in academia?
> >
> >
> > Nabokov's Pale Fire presents both sides of the "cultural elitism"
question by giving readers a narrator who obviously fancies himself a member
of that elite, while conveying social commentary that renders members of the
elite as extraordinarily "human" (read: "common"). The faculty lounge scene
in the "Foreward" depicts a fairly routine conversation, and the suggestions
that Shade might be enjoying the presence of the "striking blonde in the
black leotards" contrasts sharply with the expected discussions of
higher-education that one might expect to permeate the discussion.
Likewise, the laughter that ensues from the discussion of Kinbote's two
ping-pong tables serves to underlie the baseness of the characters, and to
ensure the reader that these men of the ivory tower are just as human, and
in many ways as cruel, as the rest of us.
> >
> > In Vineland, the repetition of TV sitcoms and pop culture references
serves a converse purpose: while readers of Vineland may find the references
mildly amusing and nostalgic, Pynchon is nevertheless establishing a system
of metaphor (e.g. the "game show" motif) that will reflect the moral
complexities and ambiguities of many of the novel's characters. In essence,
what seems to the casual reader a passing reference to some element of pop
culture becomes, later in the novel, an ever-growing network of symbol and m
etaphor (cf. Paul N's and Michael J's thread discussing mythology) that will
vibrate throughout the work.
> >
> > Is there such a thing as "cultural elitism" in Vineland? Where? How?
> >
> > How does Nabokov address the notion of "cultural elitism" in the
"Foreward" to Pale Fire?
> >
> > "Game shows" signify choices, evaluations, often times
manipulation/understanding of uses of language. How is this significant to
the novel(s)?
> >
> > Is there a parallel image in Pale Fire to equate with choice, language
manipulation, or moral ambiguity?
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 20 Jul 2003 13:06:54 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: VLVL2 and NPPF: Cultural Elitism
>
> On Sun, 2003-07-20 at 11:23, Tim Strzechowski wrote:
> > I didn't think further introduction was needed because it derives from
an
> > earlier set of posts:
> >
> > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0307&msg=83068&sort=date
> > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0307&msg=83069&sort=date
> >
> > I seem to recall some listers who were not interested in reading VL
because
> > they felt it lacked substance, relevance, etc. compared to P's other
works.
>
> Yes, there was this argument but also didn't many think the book had
> already been discussed to death by the p-list. And some wanted time to
> get over the experience of reading the foreword to 1984. That had been a
> complete downer for me. Was it possible P is a bit of a loon?
>
> Of course many writers are hard to fathom in terms of their personal
> preferences.
>
>
>
> > I'd almost use their positions as a basis for this evaluation.
>
> >
> > I associate cultural elitism with the critics of _Vineland_ who
believe(ed)
> > that the various and sundry pop culture references in the text do not
serve
> > a significance or, at best, convey mere nostalgia. In this post, your
> > question is valid because
> >
> > a) what IS meant by "cultural elitism"? What are the origins of this
> > phrase?
> >
> > b) does P's use of pop culture reflect a reduction in literary merit (on
his
> > part, as a writer), or *can* a work that relies heavily on pop culture
> > references (as imagery, as metaphor, as symbol, etc.) be said to possess
> > merit?
>
> People weren't saying were they that the use of pop culture references
> in itself would necessarily detract from a book's literary merit.
> Wouldn't it depend on the skill of the writer.
>
> Or put it this way. Are you assuming there is a distinguishable group of
> people who don't want to even notice pop culture. Is this what cultural
> elitism is? Such a group seems almost too far beyond the pale to
> consider.
>
> >
> > And, tying in PF, how does Nabokov address (or satirize?) the concept of
> > "cultural elitism" in the "Foreward"?
>
> I'm afraid I still don't "get" the question you are asking.
>
> Kinbote tells enough in the foreword for us to know he won't pass the
> family values test.
>
> Later in the commentary we learn how scholars attending a language
> conference at Wordsmith can't converse in the languages they are
> supposed to be specializing in.
>
> Small town (even college town) customs are ridiculed. . Much as Humbert
> does in Lolita.
>
> While K finds Wordsworth life provincial and stifling he does profess to
> following an organized religion. Unlike Shade who is an atheist more or
> less.
>
>
> Shade in the poem dislikes certain things associated with both the low
> and the high brow. Also he belittles Eliot who back then was the epitome
> of high culture. Pop references and all.
>
> I'm not being much help I realize. Will give it some more thought.
>
> P.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Tim
> >
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:32:04 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: VLVL2 and NPPF: Cultural Elitism
>
> > > And, tying in PF, how does Nabokov address (or satirize?) the concept
of
> > > "cultural elitism" in the "Foreward"?
> >
> > I'm afraid I still don't "get" the question you are asking.
> >
> > Kinbote tells enough in the foreword for us to know he won't pass the
> > family values test.
>
> Yes, I agree that he won't pass the test . . . but I question whether
> "Kinbote tells enough in the foreward" or if what you are saying is more
the
> result of having read the work entire and viewing the "big picture." It's
> hard for me to recall how much I knew about Kinbote by simply reading the
> foreward, since so much in it comes to light once the reader has finished
> the novel.
>
> Is anyone on the list following the reading schedule week-by-week w/o
having
> read the whole thing already? Curious, is all.
>
> >
> > Later in the commentary we learn how scholars attending a language
> > conference at Wordsmith can't converse in the languages they are
> > supposed to be specializing in.
> >
>
> Yeah, kinda reminds me of Jack Gladney in _White Noise_ attempting to
master
> German. Hilarious!
>
> >
> > Shade in the poem dislikes certain things associated with both the low
> > and the high brow. Also he belittles Eliot who back then was the epitome
> > of high culture. Pop references and all.
>
> What I find interesting in the foreward is how Kinbote deifies Shade as a
> glorious poet and thinker, yet never stops to realize some of the baser
> aspects of Shade that he inadvertantly reveals (e.g. the discussion of the
> stunning blonde in black tights, the obvious sneaking to obtain booze from
> the liquor store, etc.). Nabokov gives us Kinbote, who seems part and
> parcel of the ivory tower mindset, willing and able to pass judgment on
all
> that is aesthetically (and culturally) superior (as the Eliot reference
you
> mention), yet Nabokov also gives us dialogue and images that puncture the
> bloated images these academics have of each other and themselves.
>
> >
> > I'm not being much help I realize. Will give it some more thought.
> >
>
> Don't know that I'm being much help either, Paul. Nevertheless, it seems
to
> me that PF and VL both address the concept of "cultural elitism," but in
> different ways.
>
> Tim
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3428
> ********************************
>
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 9:36 PM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3428
>
> pynchon-l-digest Sunday, July 20 2003 Volume 02 : Number
3428
>
> On Sun, 2003-07-20 at 01:41, Tim Strzechowski wrote:
> > >> To what degree does "Pale Fire" (i.e. the Shade poem) comment on
"cultural elitism"? How
> > >> does it compare to the commentary Pynchon makes in Vineland?
> >
> > >> Does Nabokov use the character of Charles Kinbote as a means of
exploring and commenting
> > >> on "elitism" in academia?
> >
> >
> > Nabokov's Pale Fire presents both sides of the "cultural elitism"
question by giving readers a narrator who obviously fancies himself a member
of that elite, while conveying social commentary that renders members of the
elite as extraordinarily "human" (read: "common"). The faculty lounge scene
in the "Foreward" depicts a fairly routine conversation, and the suggestions
that Shade might be enjoying the presence of the "striking blonde in the
black leotards" contrasts sharply with the expected discussions of
higher-education that one might expect to permeate the discussion.
Likewise, the laughter that ensues from the discussion of Kinbote's two
ping-pong tables serves to underlie the baseness of the characters, and to
ensure the reader that these men of the ivory tower are just as human, and
in many ways as cruel, as the rest of us.
> >
> > In Vineland, the repetition of TV sitcoms and pop culture references
serves a converse purpose: while readers of Vineland may find the references
mildly amusing and nostalgic, Pynchon is nevertheless establishing a system
of metaphor (e.g. the "game show" motif) that will reflect the moral
complexities and ambiguities of many of the novel's characters. In essence,
what seems to the casual reader a passing reference to some element of pop
culture becomes, later in the novel, an ever-growing network of symbol and m
etaphor (cf. Paul N's and Michael J's thread discussing mythology) that will
vibrate throughout the work.
> >
> > Is there such a thing as "cultural elitism" in Vineland? Where? How?
> >
> > How does Nabokov address the notion of "cultural elitism" in the
"Foreward" to Pale Fire?
> >
> > "Game shows" signify choices, evaluations, often times
manipulation/understanding of uses of language. How is this significant to
the novel(s)?
> >
> > Is there a parallel image in Pale Fire to equate with choice, language
manipulation, or moral ambiguity?
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 20 Jul 2003 13:06:54 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: VLVL2 and NPPF: Cultural Elitism
>
> On Sun, 2003-07-20 at 11:23, Tim Strzechowski wrote:
> > I didn't think further introduction was needed because it derives from
an
> > earlier set of posts:
> >
> > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0307&msg=83068&sort=date
> > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0307&msg=83069&sort=date
> >
> > I seem to recall some listers who were not interested in reading VL
because
> > they felt it lacked substance, relevance, etc. compared to P's other
works.
>
> Yes, there was this argument but also didn't many think the book had
> already been discussed to death by the p-list. And some wanted time to
> get over the experience of reading the foreword to 1984. That had been a
> complete downer for me. Was it possible P is a bit of a loon?
>
> Of course many writers are hard to fathom in terms of their personal
> preferences.
>
>
>
> > I'd almost use their positions as a basis for this evaluation.
>
> >
> > I associate cultural elitism with the critics of _Vineland_ who
believe(ed)
> > that the various and sundry pop culture references in the text do not
serve
> > a significance or, at best, convey mere nostalgia. In this post, your
> > question is valid because
> >
> > a) what IS meant by "cultural elitism"? What are the origins of this
> > phrase?
> >
> > b) does P's use of pop culture reflect a reduction in literary merit (on
his
> > part, as a writer), or *can* a work that relies heavily on pop culture
> > references (as imagery, as metaphor, as symbol, etc.) be said to possess
> > merit?
>
> People weren't saying were they that the use of pop culture references
> in itself would necessarily detract from a book's literary merit.
> Wouldn't it depend on the skill of the writer.
>
> Or put it this way. Are you assuming there is a distinguishable group of
> people who don't want to even notice pop culture. Is this what cultural
> elitism is? Such a group seems almost too far beyond the pale to
> consider.
>
> >
> > And, tying in PF, how does Nabokov address (or satirize?) the concept of
> > "cultural elitism" in the "Foreward"?
>
> I'm afraid I still don't "get" the question you are asking.
>
> Kinbote tells enough in the foreword for us to know he won't pass the
> family values test.
>
> Later in the commentary we learn how scholars attending a language
> conference at Wordsmith can't converse in the languages they are
> supposed to be specializing in.
>
> Small town (even college town) customs are ridiculed. . Much as Humbert
> does in Lolita.
>
> While K finds Wordsworth life provincial and stifling he does profess to
> following an organized religion. Unlike Shade who is an atheist more or
> less.
>
>
> Shade in the poem dislikes certain things associated with both the low
> and the high brow. Also he belittles Eliot who back then was the epitome
> of high culture. Pop references and all.
>
> I'm not being much help I realize. Will give it some more thought.
>
> P.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Tim
> >
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:32:04 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: VLVL2 and NPPF: Cultural Elitism
>
> > > And, tying in PF, how does Nabokov address (or satirize?) the concept
of
> > > "cultural elitism" in the "Foreward"?
> >
> > I'm afraid I still don't "get" the question you are asking.
> >
> > Kinbote tells enough in the foreword for us to know he won't pass the
> > family values test.
>
> Yes, I agree that he won't pass the test . . . but I question whether
> "Kinbote tells enough in the foreward" or if what you are saying is more
the
> result of having read the work entire and viewing the "big picture." It's
> hard for me to recall how much I knew about Kinbote by simply reading the
> foreward, since so much in it comes to light once the reader has finished
> the novel.
>
> Is anyone on the list following the reading schedule week-by-week w/o
having
> read the whole thing already? Curious, is all.
>
> >
> > Later in the commentary we learn how scholars attending a language
> > conference at Wordsmith can't converse in the languages they are
> > supposed to be specializing in.
> >
>
> Yeah, kinda reminds me of Jack Gladney in _White Noise_ attempting to
master
> German. Hilarious!
>
> >
> > Shade in the poem dislikes certain things associated with both the low
> > and the high brow. Also he belittles Eliot who back then was the epitome
> > of high culture. Pop references and all.
>
> What I find interesting in the foreward is how Kinbote deifies Shade as a
> glorious poet and thinker, yet never stops to realize some of the baser
> aspects of Shade that he inadvertantly reveals (e.g. the discussion of the
> stunning blonde in black tights, the obvious sneaking to obtain booze from
> the liquor store, etc.). Nabokov gives us Kinbote, who seems part and
> parcel of the ivory tower mindset, willing and able to pass judgment on
all
> that is aesthetically (and culturally) superior (as the Eliot reference
you
> mention), yet Nabokov also gives us dialogue and images that puncture the
> bloated images these academics have of each other and themselves.
>
> >
> > I'm not being much help I realize. Will give it some more thought.
> >
>
> Don't know that I'm being much help either, Paul. Nevertheless, it seems
to
> me that PF and VL both address the concept of "cultural elitism," but in
> different ways.
>
> Tim
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3428
> ********************************
>