Subject
Fw: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3445 PALE FIRE
From
Date
Body
.uncarved.demon.co.uk/music/apunk/autonomia.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 09:00:56 EDT
> From: Elainemmbell@aol.com
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: "slain/By"
>
>
> In a message dated 7/25/2003 10:34:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> fqmorris@yahoo.com writes:
>
> > --- James Kyllo <jkyllo@clara.net> wrote:
> > >1881 = Iris Acht looking into a mirror
> >
> > eye-eight-eight-eye
> >
>
> also adds up to equal 18, leaving infinity at the outside beyond the wall.
> Elaine M.M. Bell, Writer
> (860) 523-9225
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 11:20:49 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: Epic Poetry and Psychological Complexity (was NPPF Canto 1:
1-4 some random notes)
>
> Terrance sed:
> >
> > Sorry, I don't know where this going. Or where it came from so .... MJ
> > suggests that I re-read some books, but I don't have the time to do
> > that.
> >
>
>
> Realizing this isn't Milton-L, this may not interest some of the
P-listers.
> BUT, for anyone who cares, some good books regarding Milton and _Paradise
> Lost_ are:
>
> William Empson, _Milton's God_ (out-of-print, but if you can nab a used
> copy, it's worth it!)
>
> Barbara Lewalski, _The Life of John Milton _ (outstanding critical
> biography)
>
> Stanley Fish, _Surprised by Sin: The Reader in Paradise Lost_ (not a big
> Fish fan ... or a big Phish fan, for that matter ... but this text raises
> excellent issues regarding how to read Milton's epic)
>
> Stanley Fish, _How Milton Works_ (ditto)
>
> The *only* edition of PL one should have, imo:
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393962938/qid=1059236229/sr=1
> - -2/ref=sr_1_2/002-2922103-1428818?v=glance&s=books
>
>
> And, if anyone is in the Chicagoland area around December 9th and would
care
> to drop by the 5th Annual Milton Marathon:
> http://www.argo217.k12.il.us/departs/english/milton/milton2001.htm
>
>
> Tim
>
>
> Why is it significant that we, as readers, view both characters in light =
> of their mature and immature qualities? Is this important to our =
> understanding of the novel as a whole?
>
> Back in Chapter One, did Zoyd exhibit both qualities? How?
>
>
> For those of us reading Pale Fire:
>
> Does Nabokov develop a similar dichotomy with either Kinbote or Shade. =
> Not necessarily in terms of maturity/immaturity, but can one build a =
> case for either/both characters embodying qualities of (for example) =
> sanity/madness? love/hate? =20
> =20
> I seem to recall noting the ways in which Shade is portrayed both as a =
> scholarly member of the ivory tower *and* as a liquor-sneaking, =
> blonde-chick-in-the-leotards appreciating sort of fella. Does this =
> dichotomy qualify? Can it be further developed?
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim
>
>
> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 11:59:53 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Dedalus <dedalus204@yahoo.com>
> Subject: VLVL2 (2): Prairie and Zoyd
>
> - --0-1312765918-1059245993=:14854
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> One thing about Chapter Two of Vineland that is particularly interesting
is the portrayal of Zoyd's relationship with his daughter, Prairie. In the
opening sentence, we learn that although Zoyd has made it home in time to
see his window jump on TV, he lets Prairie finish watching The Clara Bow
Story. She is his natural daughter, yet the rapport between the two permits
her to call him by his first name (something which I'd always thought was
more of a Southernism -- the way Scout and Jem Finch call their father
"Atticus" comes immediately to mind), and the dialogue between Zoyd and
Prairie on p. 14 seems almost a comfortable mother-daughter relationship
(discussing the dress and dating).
>
> One of the more subtle narrative elements that Pynchon achieves in this
chapter is his ability to juggle the maturity/immaturity levels of father
and daughter throughout this chapter. Zoyd laments the state of household
finances, noting in typical parental fashion that "All's I need is the
money, Trooper, I can't even keep enough groceries in this place" (15), yet
later discusses Isaiah Two-Four with Prairie and "ate a Chee-to he'd been
planning to throw" (17). Meanwhile, after snacking and watching the window
jump footage (and subsequent panal discussion), Prairie playfully evaluates
his jump as one might rate an Olympic dive, and the two launch into a
discussion of money and household finances that leads to Prairie stating the
following:
>
>
> "What am I supposed to do? Isn't me that's leaving all these cakes and
pies and stuff layin' around, candy bars in the freezer, Nestle's Quik
instead of sugar, eeoo! What chance have I got?" (15)
>
> A brilliant piece of dialogue this is, because it reveals much about
Prairie: her frustration at perhaps being the female of the house, which
accounts for her seemingly scolding-mother tone; her two questions, which
bookend this snippet of dialogue, which harken to the greater needs that
she, as a child, must have addressed by a parent; and the exclamation of
"eeoo!" which reminds us that, despite the maturity she must exhibit in
having to live with this ex-hippie, Prairie is still just a kid.
>
> I would be curious to know how some of the "Moms" on the list (Barbara?
Elaine? etc.?) interpret the relationship between Zoyd and Prairie from a
mother-daughter standpoint.
>
> Are there other ways in which Pynchon juggles the maturity/immaturity of
both Zoyd and Prairie in this chapter?
>
> Why is it significant that we, as readers, view both characters in light
of their mature and immature qualities? Is this important to our
understanding of the novel as a whole?
>
> Back in Chapter One, did Zoyd exhibit both qualities? How?
>
>
> For those of us reading Pale Fire:
>
> Does Nabokov develop a similar dichotomy with either Kinbote or Shade.
Not necessarily in terms of maturity/immaturity, but can one build a case
for either/both characters embodying qualities of (for example)
sanity/madness? love/hate?
>
> I seem to recall noting the ways in which Shade is portrayed both as a
scholarly member of the ivory tower *and* as a liquor-sneaking,
blonde-chick-in-the-leotards appreciating sort of fella. Does this
dichotomy qualify? Can it be further developed?
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim
>
>
>
>
> "We are most artistically caged."
> ~~ John Francis Shade (1898 - 1959)
>
>
>>
> ------------------------------
> ********************************
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to waste@waste.org
> with "unsubscribe pynchon-l-digest" in the message body.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 09:00:56 EDT
> From: Elainemmbell@aol.com
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: "slain/By"
>
>
> In a message dated 7/25/2003 10:34:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> fqmorris@yahoo.com writes:
>
> > --- James Kyllo <jkyllo@clara.net> wrote:
> > >1881 = Iris Acht looking into a mirror
> >
> > eye-eight-eight-eye
> >
>
> also adds up to equal 18, leaving infinity at the outside beyond the wall.
> Elaine M.M. Bell, Writer
> (860) 523-9225
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 11:20:49 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: Epic Poetry and Psychological Complexity (was NPPF Canto 1:
1-4 some random notes)
>
> Terrance sed:
> >
> > Sorry, I don't know where this going. Or where it came from so .... MJ
> > suggests that I re-read some books, but I don't have the time to do
> > that.
> >
>
>
> Realizing this isn't Milton-L, this may not interest some of the
P-listers.
> BUT, for anyone who cares, some good books regarding Milton and _Paradise
> Lost_ are:
>
> William Empson, _Milton's God_ (out-of-print, but if you can nab a used
> copy, it's worth it!)
>
> Barbara Lewalski, _The Life of John Milton _ (outstanding critical
> biography)
>
> Stanley Fish, _Surprised by Sin: The Reader in Paradise Lost_ (not a big
> Fish fan ... or a big Phish fan, for that matter ... but this text raises
> excellent issues regarding how to read Milton's epic)
>
> Stanley Fish, _How Milton Works_ (ditto)
>
> The *only* edition of PL one should have, imo:
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393962938/qid=1059236229/sr=1
> - -2/ref=sr_1_2/002-2922103-1428818?v=glance&s=books
>
>
> And, if anyone is in the Chicagoland area around December 9th and would
care
> to drop by the 5th Annual Milton Marathon:
> http://www.argo217.k12.il.us/departs/english/milton/milton2001.htm
>
>
> Tim
>
>
> Why is it significant that we, as readers, view both characters in light =
> of their mature and immature qualities? Is this important to our =
> understanding of the novel as a whole?
>
> Back in Chapter One, did Zoyd exhibit both qualities? How?
>
>
> For those of us reading Pale Fire:
>
> Does Nabokov develop a similar dichotomy with either Kinbote or Shade. =
> Not necessarily in terms of maturity/immaturity, but can one build a =
> case for either/both characters embodying qualities of (for example) =
> sanity/madness? love/hate? =20
> =20
> I seem to recall noting the ways in which Shade is portrayed both as a =
> scholarly member of the ivory tower *and* as a liquor-sneaking, =
> blonde-chick-in-the-leotards appreciating sort of fella. Does this =
> dichotomy qualify? Can it be further developed?
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim
>
>
> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 11:59:53 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Dedalus <dedalus204@yahoo.com>
> Subject: VLVL2 (2): Prairie and Zoyd
>
> - --0-1312765918-1059245993=:14854
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> One thing about Chapter Two of Vineland that is particularly interesting
is the portrayal of Zoyd's relationship with his daughter, Prairie. In the
opening sentence, we learn that although Zoyd has made it home in time to
see his window jump on TV, he lets Prairie finish watching The Clara Bow
Story. She is his natural daughter, yet the rapport between the two permits
her to call him by his first name (something which I'd always thought was
more of a Southernism -- the way Scout and Jem Finch call their father
"Atticus" comes immediately to mind), and the dialogue between Zoyd and
Prairie on p. 14 seems almost a comfortable mother-daughter relationship
(discussing the dress and dating).
>
> One of the more subtle narrative elements that Pynchon achieves in this
chapter is his ability to juggle the maturity/immaturity levels of father
and daughter throughout this chapter. Zoyd laments the state of household
finances, noting in typical parental fashion that "All's I need is the
money, Trooper, I can't even keep enough groceries in this place" (15), yet
later discusses Isaiah Two-Four with Prairie and "ate a Chee-to he'd been
planning to throw" (17). Meanwhile, after snacking and watching the window
jump footage (and subsequent panal discussion), Prairie playfully evaluates
his jump as one might rate an Olympic dive, and the two launch into a
discussion of money and household finances that leads to Prairie stating the
following:
>
>
> "What am I supposed to do? Isn't me that's leaving all these cakes and
pies and stuff layin' around, candy bars in the freezer, Nestle's Quik
instead of sugar, eeoo! What chance have I got?" (15)
>
> A brilliant piece of dialogue this is, because it reveals much about
Prairie: her frustration at perhaps being the female of the house, which
accounts for her seemingly scolding-mother tone; her two questions, which
bookend this snippet of dialogue, which harken to the greater needs that
she, as a child, must have addressed by a parent; and the exclamation of
"eeoo!" which reminds us that, despite the maturity she must exhibit in
having to live with this ex-hippie, Prairie is still just a kid.
>
> I would be curious to know how some of the "Moms" on the list (Barbara?
Elaine? etc.?) interpret the relationship between Zoyd and Prairie from a
mother-daughter standpoint.
>
> Are there other ways in which Pynchon juggles the maturity/immaturity of
both Zoyd and Prairie in this chapter?
>
> Why is it significant that we, as readers, view both characters in light
of their mature and immature qualities? Is this important to our
understanding of the novel as a whole?
>
> Back in Chapter One, did Zoyd exhibit both qualities? How?
>
>
> For those of us reading Pale Fire:
>
> Does Nabokov develop a similar dichotomy with either Kinbote or Shade.
Not necessarily in terms of maturity/immaturity, but can one build a case
for either/both characters embodying qualities of (for example)
sanity/madness? love/hate?
>
> I seem to recall noting the ways in which Shade is portrayed both as a
scholarly member of the ivory tower *and* as a liquor-sneaking,
blonde-chick-in-the-leotards appreciating sort of fella. Does this
dichotomy qualify? Can it be further developed?
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim
>
>
>
>
> "We are most artistically caged."
> ~~ John Francis Shade (1898 - 1959)
>
>
>>
> ------------------------------
> ********************************
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to waste@waste.org
> with "unsubscribe pynchon-l-digest" in the message body.