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PALE FIRE Fw: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3446
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> ------------------------------
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> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 23:01:06 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: Epic Poetry ... poem/read dynamic
>
> Quoth Michael Joseph:
>
> > > Tim, Milton aside, why do you say Shade's poem lacks a poem/reader
> > > dynamic? I don't ask to put you on the spot, but inasmuch as it
> > > strikes me as very musical and redolent of Nabokov's own ideas (as
> > > David and I have been discussing), and because parts of it are very
> > > affecting, I guess I'm willing to risk putting you on the spot (grin)
to
> > > find out what it is I'm missing - or what it is that's missing that
I'm
> > > not seeing.
> > >
>
> Frankly, I'm sure others on the List have a far better appreciation and
> understanding of Shade's poem than I do, and what I'm about to say will no
> doubt be torn to shreds (and I rather hope it is, because maybe I'll learn
> something I didn't know about the poem). Nevertheless, you asked for my
> opinion, so here it is:
>
> For me, the biggest obstacle to enjoying Shade's poem is Shade himself. I
> find his poetic voice arrogant, and during his tiresome catalog of scenes
> and objects in Canto 1, for example, we are continually reminded of what
a
> sensitive and exceptional poet he fancies himself to be. From the opening
> pronoun "I," we are treated to an incessant list of scenes that he is
trying
> to capture in verse, and he informs us that "My eyes were such that
> literally they / Took
> photographs" (30-1), and he need only close his eyes and "tarry for an
hour
> or two" (37) before "reproducing" (39) the various elements of the scene.
> This goes on and on throughout the opening canto, examples abound, and
quite
> frankly Shade's opinions of Shade's poetic skills grow tiresome after a
> while.
>
> Earlier in the thread I tried to contrast this aspect of Shade's writing
> style with that of Milton's found in _Paradise Lost_ (which is how the
whole
> Milton discussion began). Throughout the epic, Milton invokes the Muse to
> help grant him the ability to envision what he cannot see, and no fewer
than
> three times does the Miltonic bard voice concerns over the adequacy with
> which he will capture and convey such sublime events. Beginning Book IX,
> the poet states:
>
> "If answerable style I can obtain
> Of my celestial patroness, who deigns
> Her mighty visitation unimplored,
> And dictates to me slumb'ring, or inspires
> Easy my unpremeditated verse" (lines 20-4),
>
> one of many passages in the poem that present a poetic voice that is
humbled
> by the magnitude of the subject matter and the limitations of one's poetic
> ability (in Milton's case, blindness). Shade's poetic voice is a bit too
> full of itself for my liking.
>
> Stylistically, I find that the Shade poem grows on me the more I reread
it.
> When I first read it many moons ago, I recall thinking that it sounds
> similar to something that could have been written by Byron (_Don Juan_,
for
> example), in that the word choice to achieve many of the rhymes seems to
> have been achieved by choosing a rhyme first and then fashioning the
iambic
> structure to fit that rhyme, a technique that is often used by less adept
> student-poets, achieving some pretty lame-ass results (e.g. "I went into
my
> first hour study hall / And there I found you making a telephone call").
For
> Byron, of course, it adds to the intended humor of the poetry while giving
> it an improvised quality. Here's an example, chosen pretty much at
random:
>
> "Her favorite science was the mathematical,
> Her noblest virtue was her magnanimity,
> Her wit (she sometimes tried at wit) was Attic all,
> Her serious sayings darkened to sublimity;
> In short, in all things she was fairly what I call
> A prodigy -- her morning dress was dimity,
> Her evening silk, or, in the summer, muslin,
> And other stuffs, with which I won't stay puzzling." (_Don Juan_, Canto
I,
> verse 12)
>
> There are times in Shade's poem that, to me, seem to echo this "forced
> rhyme" quality, though given the overall serious tone of the poem, it can
> hardly be justified by Shade (although, as Rob has suggested, this perhaps
> adds to the parodic quality of Nabokov's aims). For example:
>
> "But it's not bedtime yet. The sun attains
> Old Dr. Sutton's last two windowpanes.
> The man must be -- what? Eighty? Eighty-two?
> Was twice my age the year I married you.
> Where are you? In the garden. I can see
> Part of your shadow near the shagbark tree.
> Somewhere horseshoes are being tossed. Click. Clunk.
> (Leaning against its lamppost like a drunk.) [...] (lines 985 - 991)
>
> As I've said, however, the poem has grown on me, and there are certainly
> passages of incredible beauty sprinkled throughout. But it's hardly a
> masterpiece in and of itself.
>
> Finally, I didn't mean to suggest that those favorite lines or passages we
> may have from the shade poem don't touch our soul, or impact us in some
> profound way as any favorite poem might. Yes, there are "musical" and
> "affecting" qualities of the poem, but my comparison with Milton was
geared
> more toward the way in which a poem like _Paradise Lost_ demands of its
> readers a certain reaction to its moral implications if we are to fully
> appreciate what Milton has attempted to do. In creating a character like
> Satan, he manipulates the sympathies of his readers in a way that
parallels
> the very lapse of reason experienced by Adam and Eve and we, as readers,
are
> hard pressed to judge them for their Fall when we, too, are somewhat led
to
> sympathize with the villain. Yet, by incorporating the occasional asides
of
> the bardic voice, Milton balances our sympathies with reminders (from
> above?) that Satan is not to be trusted. Hence, as a poet Milton puts his
> reader into the same sort of moral predicament that his characters are in.
>
> I don't see that Shade's poem, alone, possesses that sort of moral
dynamic.
> For me, that dynamic comes into play only when we take into account
Kinbote
> and his (mis)reading of the poem. Only then can we truly evaluate the
> intentions of author vs. commentator; only then can we judge the
> effectiveness of the commentator's work; only then can we gain insight
into
> the moral ambiguities of poet and commentator. Milton's poem achieves a
> reader/poem dynamic by itself; Shade's poem doesn't ... only when we
> consider how Kinbote has (mis)handled the poem can we, as reader's, begin
to
> grapple with the moral implications and issues that arise from it.
>
> So . . . stepping back from both Shade and Kinbote, I suppose one might
say
> that Nabokov (as author of both Kinbote and Shade) achieves a
> reader/literary work dynamic akin to that of Milton.
>
> Whew . . .
>
> Tim S.
>
>> ********************************
>
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 23:01:06 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: Epic Poetry ... poem/read dynamic
>
> Quoth Michael Joseph:
>
> > > Tim, Milton aside, why do you say Shade's poem lacks a poem/reader
> > > dynamic? I don't ask to put you on the spot, but inasmuch as it
> > > strikes me as very musical and redolent of Nabokov's own ideas (as
> > > David and I have been discussing), and because parts of it are very
> > > affecting, I guess I'm willing to risk putting you on the spot (grin)
to
> > > find out what it is I'm missing - or what it is that's missing that
I'm
> > > not seeing.
> > >
>
> Frankly, I'm sure others on the List have a far better appreciation and
> understanding of Shade's poem than I do, and what I'm about to say will no
> doubt be torn to shreds (and I rather hope it is, because maybe I'll learn
> something I didn't know about the poem). Nevertheless, you asked for my
> opinion, so here it is:
>
> For me, the biggest obstacle to enjoying Shade's poem is Shade himself. I
> find his poetic voice arrogant, and during his tiresome catalog of scenes
> and objects in Canto 1, for example, we are continually reminded of what
a
> sensitive and exceptional poet he fancies himself to be. From the opening
> pronoun "I," we are treated to an incessant list of scenes that he is
trying
> to capture in verse, and he informs us that "My eyes were such that
> literally they / Took
> photographs" (30-1), and he need only close his eyes and "tarry for an
hour
> or two" (37) before "reproducing" (39) the various elements of the scene.
> This goes on and on throughout the opening canto, examples abound, and
quite
> frankly Shade's opinions of Shade's poetic skills grow tiresome after a
> while.
>
> Earlier in the thread I tried to contrast this aspect of Shade's writing
> style with that of Milton's found in _Paradise Lost_ (which is how the
whole
> Milton discussion began). Throughout the epic, Milton invokes the Muse to
> help grant him the ability to envision what he cannot see, and no fewer
than
> three times does the Miltonic bard voice concerns over the adequacy with
> which he will capture and convey such sublime events. Beginning Book IX,
> the poet states:
>
> "If answerable style I can obtain
> Of my celestial patroness, who deigns
> Her mighty visitation unimplored,
> And dictates to me slumb'ring, or inspires
> Easy my unpremeditated verse" (lines 20-4),
>
> one of many passages in the poem that present a poetic voice that is
humbled
> by the magnitude of the subject matter and the limitations of one's poetic
> ability (in Milton's case, blindness). Shade's poetic voice is a bit too
> full of itself for my liking.
>
> Stylistically, I find that the Shade poem grows on me the more I reread
it.
> When I first read it many moons ago, I recall thinking that it sounds
> similar to something that could have been written by Byron (_Don Juan_,
for
> example), in that the word choice to achieve many of the rhymes seems to
> have been achieved by choosing a rhyme first and then fashioning the
iambic
> structure to fit that rhyme, a technique that is often used by less adept
> student-poets, achieving some pretty lame-ass results (e.g. "I went into
my
> first hour study hall / And there I found you making a telephone call").
For
> Byron, of course, it adds to the intended humor of the poetry while giving
> it an improvised quality. Here's an example, chosen pretty much at
random:
>
> "Her favorite science was the mathematical,
> Her noblest virtue was her magnanimity,
> Her wit (she sometimes tried at wit) was Attic all,
> Her serious sayings darkened to sublimity;
> In short, in all things she was fairly what I call
> A prodigy -- her morning dress was dimity,
> Her evening silk, or, in the summer, muslin,
> And other stuffs, with which I won't stay puzzling." (_Don Juan_, Canto
I,
> verse 12)
>
> There are times in Shade's poem that, to me, seem to echo this "forced
> rhyme" quality, though given the overall serious tone of the poem, it can
> hardly be justified by Shade (although, as Rob has suggested, this perhaps
> adds to the parodic quality of Nabokov's aims). For example:
>
> "But it's not bedtime yet. The sun attains
> Old Dr. Sutton's last two windowpanes.
> The man must be -- what? Eighty? Eighty-two?
> Was twice my age the year I married you.
> Where are you? In the garden. I can see
> Part of your shadow near the shagbark tree.
> Somewhere horseshoes are being tossed. Click. Clunk.
> (Leaning against its lamppost like a drunk.) [...] (lines 985 - 991)
>
> As I've said, however, the poem has grown on me, and there are certainly
> passages of incredible beauty sprinkled throughout. But it's hardly a
> masterpiece in and of itself.
>
> Finally, I didn't mean to suggest that those favorite lines or passages we
> may have from the shade poem don't touch our soul, or impact us in some
> profound way as any favorite poem might. Yes, there are "musical" and
> "affecting" qualities of the poem, but my comparison with Milton was
geared
> more toward the way in which a poem like _Paradise Lost_ demands of its
> readers a certain reaction to its moral implications if we are to fully
> appreciate what Milton has attempted to do. In creating a character like
> Satan, he manipulates the sympathies of his readers in a way that
parallels
> the very lapse of reason experienced by Adam and Eve and we, as readers,
are
> hard pressed to judge them for their Fall when we, too, are somewhat led
to
> sympathize with the villain. Yet, by incorporating the occasional asides
of
> the bardic voice, Milton balances our sympathies with reminders (from
> above?) that Satan is not to be trusted. Hence, as a poet Milton puts his
> reader into the same sort of moral predicament that his characters are in.
>
> I don't see that Shade's poem, alone, possesses that sort of moral
dynamic.
> For me, that dynamic comes into play only when we take into account
Kinbote
> and his (mis)reading of the poem. Only then can we truly evaluate the
> intentions of author vs. commentator; only then can we judge the
> effectiveness of the commentator's work; only then can we gain insight
into
> the moral ambiguities of poet and commentator. Milton's poem achieves a
> reader/poem dynamic by itself; Shade's poem doesn't ... only when we
> consider how Kinbote has (mis)handled the poem can we, as reader's, begin
to
> grapple with the moral implications and issues that arise from it.
>
> So . . . stepping back from both Shade and Kinbote, I suppose one might
say
> that Nabokov (as author of both Kinbote and Shade) achieves a
> reader/literary work dynamic akin to that of Milton.
>
> Whew . . .
>
> Tim S.
>
>> ********************************
>