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Fw: pynchon-l-digest V2 # PALE FIRE
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----- Original Message -----
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 1:30 PM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3447
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 17:10:26 +1000
> From: jbor <jbor@bigpond.com>
> Subject: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> No free man needs a God; but was I free?
> How fully I felt nature glued to me
> And how my childish palate loved the taste
> Half-fish, half-honey, of that golden paste!
> (101-5)
>
> I must admit I wasn't convinced by Keith's ("shocking"!) incest with Aunt
> Maud theory, but there are questions about what in heck Shade's referring
to
> with his description of the odd mixture of flavours here. The immediate
> referent of "taste" and "paste" is "nature", which is certainly vague
enough
> to sustain a lot of different interpretations, or to be a euphemism.
>
> Is the suggestion that Shade is consciously and deliberately recalling an
> experience of incest and referring to it cryptically in the poem? Or is it
> that he's sublimated the experience and it has emerged spontaneously
through
> the poem? The things which didn't quite gel for me with the Aunt Maud
thing
> are the fact that Line 99 marks the start of a new stanza and new topic
> (Shade's early loss of faith in God), and the fact that he exclaims how he
> "loved the taste" of whatever it is he's talking about, but on the other
> hand I'm having a hard time working out why "nature" would taste like a
fish
> and honey combo, or how that's a particularly palatable combination.
>
> best
>
> ------------------------------
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 07:08:18 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> > "paste"
>
> > gel
>
> Cute pun, Mr. Jackson.
>
>
> > but on the other
> > hand I'm having a hard time working out why "nature" would taste like a
> fish
> > and honey combo, or how that's a particularly palatable combination.
> >
>
> And given the crude euphemisms often used to describe female genitalia
> (centering, of course, around "fish" and "honey"), and its "natural"
> (inborn, created, naked, etc.) qualities, I can see where one might arrive
> at the suggestions of sexuality.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 07:27:35 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: VLVL2 (2): Readings
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 11:48:09 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: Epic Poetry ... poem/read dynamic
>
> On
> > Behalf Of Tim Strzechowski
> >
> > There are times in Shade's poem that, to me, seem to echo this "forced
> > rhyme" quality, though given the overall serious tone of the poem, it
can
> > hardly be justified by Shade (although, as Rob has suggested, this
perhaps
> > adds to the parodic quality of Nabokov's aims).
> >
>
> Isn't this at least partly the fault of English? Most rhymed English
verse,
> especially couplets, has this forced sound (to my ear anyway), and a
> sing-song quality too (an effect of iambs I guess). Poe's Raven for
> instance, is another poem with a serious tone and serious themes
undermined
> by its structure. Isn't this one of the reasons so many poets ditched
> rhymes or worked so hard to make them more subtle? What's the point of
> rhyming anyway? What's Shade point in rhyming "Pale Fire"?
>
> Fidget
>
> ------------------------------
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 11:33:14 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: Epic Poetry ... poem/read dynamic
>
> Jasper, I know what you mean. For me at least (and I don't wish to propel
> this thread further from N and P as maybe the Milton discussion did), the
> *only* poet I've encountered who could make heroic couplets flow smoothly
> without that artificial quality is Pope. Others may very well disagree,
but
> Pope's couplets are about as perfect as any poet can hope to make them!
>
> You specify English. I'd be interested in knowing if that artificial
> quality to rhyming is typical of rhyme in other languages, as well. I'm
> certain it is, and not unique to our language.
>
>
> > What's the point of
> > rhyming anyway? What's Shade point in rhyming "Pale Fire"?
> >
>
> I find it interesting -- and appropriate -- that the Shade poem is
composed
> in couplets, and the nature of _Pale Fire_ (the novel itself) as a fiction
> is concerned with a pairing, a coupling of poet and commentator, and the
> intricate dialogue and interpretation that transpires between Shade and
> Kinbote, poet and commentator, reader and poetic artifact, and reader and
> novelist. Lots of pairings.
>
> Didn't we post something before in VLVL2 about pairs and doubles in
> _Vineland_?
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 13:46:24 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: Epic Poetry ... poem/read dynamic
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tim Strzechowski [mailto:dedalus204@comcast.net]
> >
> > Jasper, I know what you mean. For me at least (and I don't wish to
propel
> > this thread further from N and P as maybe the Milton discussion did),
the
> > *only* poet I've encountered who could make heroic couplets flow
smoothly
> > without that artificial quality is Pope. Others may very well disagree,
> > but
> > Pope's couplets are about as perfect as any poet can hope to make them!
> >
> > You specify English. I'd be interested in knowing if that artificial
> > quality to rhyming is typical of rhyme in other languages, as well. I'm
> > certain it is, and not unique to our language.
>
>
> English is the worst culprit of the languages I'm familiar with (which
could
> simply be an effect of limited exposure). German maybe has a touch of
it --
> take for example Goethe's classic "Ein Gleiches":
>
> эber allen Gipfeln
> Ist Ruh,
> In allen Wipfeln
> SpЭrest du
> Kaum einen Hauch;
> Die VЖgelein schweigen im Walde.
> Warte nur, balde
> Ruhest du auch.
>
> French I think has more subtle sounds, so the rhymes don't stand out in
the
> same way -- from Verlaine's "La Bonne Chanson":
>
> O triste, triste Иtait mon Бme
> A cause, Ю cause d'une femme.
>
> Je ne me suis pas consolИ
> Bien que mon coeur s'en soit allИ,
>
> Bien que mon coeur, bien que mon Бme
> Eussent fui loin de cette femme,
>
> Je ne me suis pas consolИ,
> Bien que mon coeur s'en soit allИ.
>
> Et mon coeur, mon coeur trop sensible
> Dit Ю mon Бme: Est-il possible,
>
>
> The more I think about it, it has to be iambs and other stress forms that
> cause it. Syllabic verse like that found in Romance languages seems
better
> suited for rhyming. I don't have any Russian, so I can only wonder if it
> has the same awkwardness?
>
> Jasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 11:54:40 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> >>>And given the crude euphemisms often used to describe female genitalia
> (centering, of course, around "fish" and "honey"), and its "natural"
> (inborn, created, naked, etc.) qualities, I can see where one might arrive
> at the suggestions of sexuality.<<<
>
> And the only golden paste I remember is that of the old fashioned Elmer's
> glue. Remember the rubber top that one had to slit in order to dispense
the
> product?
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 13:29:30 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: NPPF Canto 1 Menace, Well-Concealed
>
> winter's code = A dot, an arrow pointing back ; repeat:
> Dot, arrow pointing back . . . A pheasant's
> feet!
>
> "--in what Van called their dot-dot-dotage--" (ADA, p.109/Vintage pb)
>
> Ardis = "the point of an arrow" (ADA, p.225)
>
> The words pale/shade/shadow/gray occur with statistically significant
> frequency and proximity throughout ADA.
>
> "Allied to the professional and vocational dreams are "dim-doom" visions:
> fatidic-sign nightmares, thalamic calamities,* menacing riddles. Not
> infrequently the menace is well concealed, and the innocent incident will
> turn out to possess, if jotted down and looked up later, the kind of
> precognitive flavor** that Dunne has explained by the action of "reverse
> memory"; but for the moment I am not going to enlarge upon the uncanny
> element particular to dreams---beyond observing that some law of logic
> should fix a number of coincidences, in a given domain, after which they
> cease to be coincidences, and form, instead, the living organism of a new
> truth" (ADA, p.361)
>
> "He knew that shade and that shape." (ADA, p. 372)
>
> * thalamus = brain structure/the opening to a flower
> epilepsy/incest
>
> ** = precognitive flavor = half-fish, half-honey
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3447
> ********************************
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to waste@waste.org
> with "unsubscribe pynchon-l-digest" in the message body.
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 1:30 PM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3447
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 17:10:26 +1000
> From: jbor <jbor@bigpond.com>
> Subject: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> No free man needs a God; but was I free?
> How fully I felt nature glued to me
> And how my childish palate loved the taste
> Half-fish, half-honey, of that golden paste!
> (101-5)
>
> I must admit I wasn't convinced by Keith's ("shocking"!) incest with Aunt
> Maud theory, but there are questions about what in heck Shade's referring
to
> with his description of the odd mixture of flavours here. The immediate
> referent of "taste" and "paste" is "nature", which is certainly vague
enough
> to sustain a lot of different interpretations, or to be a euphemism.
>
> Is the suggestion that Shade is consciously and deliberately recalling an
> experience of incest and referring to it cryptically in the poem? Or is it
> that he's sublimated the experience and it has emerged spontaneously
through
> the poem? The things which didn't quite gel for me with the Aunt Maud
thing
> are the fact that Line 99 marks the start of a new stanza and new topic
> (Shade's early loss of faith in God), and the fact that he exclaims how he
> "loved the taste" of whatever it is he's talking about, but on the other
> hand I'm having a hard time working out why "nature" would taste like a
fish
> and honey combo, or how that's a particularly palatable combination.
>
> best
>
> ------------------------------
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 07:08:18 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> > "paste"
>
> > gel
>
> Cute pun, Mr. Jackson.
>
>
> > but on the other
> > hand I'm having a hard time working out why "nature" would taste like a
> fish
> > and honey combo, or how that's a particularly palatable combination.
> >
>
> And given the crude euphemisms often used to describe female genitalia
> (centering, of course, around "fish" and "honey"), and its "natural"
> (inborn, created, naked, etc.) qualities, I can see where one might arrive
> at the suggestions of sexuality.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 07:27:35 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: VLVL2 (2): Readings
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 11:48:09 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: Epic Poetry ... poem/read dynamic
>
> On
> > Behalf Of Tim Strzechowski
> >
> > There are times in Shade's poem that, to me, seem to echo this "forced
> > rhyme" quality, though given the overall serious tone of the poem, it
can
> > hardly be justified by Shade (although, as Rob has suggested, this
perhaps
> > adds to the parodic quality of Nabokov's aims).
> >
>
> Isn't this at least partly the fault of English? Most rhymed English
verse,
> especially couplets, has this forced sound (to my ear anyway), and a
> sing-song quality too (an effect of iambs I guess). Poe's Raven for
> instance, is another poem with a serious tone and serious themes
undermined
> by its structure. Isn't this one of the reasons so many poets ditched
> rhymes or worked so hard to make them more subtle? What's the point of
> rhyming anyway? What's Shade point in rhyming "Pale Fire"?
>
> Fidget
>
> ------------------------------
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 11:33:14 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: Epic Poetry ... poem/read dynamic
>
> Jasper, I know what you mean. For me at least (and I don't wish to propel
> this thread further from N and P as maybe the Milton discussion did), the
> *only* poet I've encountered who could make heroic couplets flow smoothly
> without that artificial quality is Pope. Others may very well disagree,
but
> Pope's couplets are about as perfect as any poet can hope to make them!
>
> You specify English. I'd be interested in knowing if that artificial
> quality to rhyming is typical of rhyme in other languages, as well. I'm
> certain it is, and not unique to our language.
>
>
> > What's the point of
> > rhyming anyway? What's Shade point in rhyming "Pale Fire"?
> >
>
> I find it interesting -- and appropriate -- that the Shade poem is
composed
> in couplets, and the nature of _Pale Fire_ (the novel itself) as a fiction
> is concerned with a pairing, a coupling of poet and commentator, and the
> intricate dialogue and interpretation that transpires between Shade and
> Kinbote, poet and commentator, reader and poetic artifact, and reader and
> novelist. Lots of pairings.
>
> Didn't we post something before in VLVL2 about pairs and doubles in
> _Vineland_?
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 13:46:24 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: Epic Poetry ... poem/read dynamic
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tim Strzechowski [mailto:dedalus204@comcast.net]
> >
> > Jasper, I know what you mean. For me at least (and I don't wish to
propel
> > this thread further from N and P as maybe the Milton discussion did),
the
> > *only* poet I've encountered who could make heroic couplets flow
smoothly
> > without that artificial quality is Pope. Others may very well disagree,
> > but
> > Pope's couplets are about as perfect as any poet can hope to make them!
> >
> > You specify English. I'd be interested in knowing if that artificial
> > quality to rhyming is typical of rhyme in other languages, as well. I'm
> > certain it is, and not unique to our language.
>
>
> English is the worst culprit of the languages I'm familiar with (which
could
> simply be an effect of limited exposure). German maybe has a touch of
it --
> take for example Goethe's classic "Ein Gleiches":
>
> эber allen Gipfeln
> Ist Ruh,
> In allen Wipfeln
> SpЭrest du
> Kaum einen Hauch;
> Die VЖgelein schweigen im Walde.
> Warte nur, balde
> Ruhest du auch.
>
> French I think has more subtle sounds, so the rhymes don't stand out in
the
> same way -- from Verlaine's "La Bonne Chanson":
>
> O triste, triste Иtait mon Бme
> A cause, Ю cause d'une femme.
>
> Je ne me suis pas consolИ
> Bien que mon coeur s'en soit allИ,
>
> Bien que mon coeur, bien que mon Бme
> Eussent fui loin de cette femme,
>
> Je ne me suis pas consolИ,
> Bien que mon coeur s'en soit allИ.
>
> Et mon coeur, mon coeur trop sensible
> Dit Ю mon Бme: Est-il possible,
>
>
> The more I think about it, it has to be iambs and other stress forms that
> cause it. Syllabic verse like that found in Romance languages seems
better
> suited for rhyming. I don't have any Russian, so I can only wonder if it
> has the same awkwardness?
>
> Jasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 11:54:40 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> >>>And given the crude euphemisms often used to describe female genitalia
> (centering, of course, around "fish" and "honey"), and its "natural"
> (inborn, created, naked, etc.) qualities, I can see where one might arrive
> at the suggestions of sexuality.<<<
>
> And the only golden paste I remember is that of the old fashioned Elmer's
> glue. Remember the rubber top that one had to slit in order to dispense
the
> product?
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 13:29:30 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: NPPF Canto 1 Menace, Well-Concealed
>
> winter's code = A dot, an arrow pointing back ; repeat:
> Dot, arrow pointing back . . . A pheasant's
> feet!
>
> "--in what Van called their dot-dot-dotage--" (ADA, p.109/Vintage pb)
>
> Ardis = "the point of an arrow" (ADA, p.225)
>
> The words pale/shade/shadow/gray occur with statistically significant
> frequency and proximity throughout ADA.
>
> "Allied to the professional and vocational dreams are "dim-doom" visions:
> fatidic-sign nightmares, thalamic calamities,* menacing riddles. Not
> infrequently the menace is well concealed, and the innocent incident will
> turn out to possess, if jotted down and looked up later, the kind of
> precognitive flavor** that Dunne has explained by the action of "reverse
> memory"; but for the moment I am not going to enlarge upon the uncanny
> element particular to dreams---beyond observing that some law of logic
> should fix a number of coincidences, in a given domain, after which they
> cease to be coincidences, and form, instead, the living organism of a new
> truth" (ADA, p.361)
>
> "He knew that shade and that shape." (ADA, p. 372)
>
> * thalamus = brain structure/the opening to a flower
> epilepsy/incest
>
> ** = precognitive flavor = half-fish, half-honey
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3447
> ********************************
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to waste@waste.org
> with "unsubscribe pynchon-l-digest" in the message body.