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Fw: Fw: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
From
Date
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Dane Gill" <pennyparkerpark@hotmail.com>
>
> ---------------- Message requiring your approval (239
lines) ------------------
> As far as I understand, the poem itself was written as a whole, as a
> seperate piece of work, quite removed from the Commentary - with the
obvious
> intention of having it interlock with the Commentary enventually .
However,
> this doesn't really answer whether it was written durring, after, or
before.
> But, it does lead one to surmise that Nabokov gave the poem his full
> attention as an individual piece of art, as opposed to simply "filling in
> the gaps" to the Commentary. The question arises though, whether Nabokov
was
> writing as Nabokov - as in "here's a poem I wrote, it is wonderful" - or
> writing "as" John Shade - as in "here's a poem some other guy wrote, my
> opinion of it is irrelevent." Did the difficulty Nabokov experienced while
> writng the poem come from his inability or unfamiliarity with poetry
writing
> (obviously not so) or because he was "writing" as someone else. In the
case
> of Lolita, HH actually writes like Nabokov, but it is not as important to
> that novel to give the illusion of a completely different author - nobody,
> with the exception of a few stary line from r. John Ray - is actually,
> critically, analysing Humbert's prose style within that novel. In the case
> of Pale Fire, however, Kinbote is doing exactly this (along with telling
his
> own tale). To have Kinbote write like Nabokov (which he does) is not a
> problem, but to have him analyse the work of someone else that writes like
> Nabokov might ruin the illusionof having two separate authors (this of
> course brings into question who wrote the poem, who wrote the
> commentary...but lets assume for the moment that it is supposed to be two
> separate authors). Therefore Nabokov would intentionally have to write a
> poem differently than he'd had written in the past (though some will say
the
> poem is one of the most Nabokovian things Nabokov ever read) and as a
result
> had to struggle to acheive this. Any comments?
>
> >From: "D. Barton Johnson" <chtodel@cox.net>
> >Reply-To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> >To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> >Subject: Fw: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
> >Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:01:48 -0700
> >
> >EDNOTE. GK prompts me to wonder somehing I should (but don't) know. Boyd
> >may
> >supply the answer. Was the poem composed before, during, or after the
> >"Commentary"?
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Kenny, Glenn" <gkenny@hfmus.com>
> > >
> > > ---------------- Message requiring your approval (164
> >lines) ------------------
> > > The first thing to remember is that, regardless of the illusion that
the
> > > poem is a stand-alone work, it most manifestly is not. Kinbote's
> >insistence
> > > that the poem has no existence without the commentary is, in the
context
> >of
> > > the novel, a kind of cruelty he inflicts on Shade's shade; but in the
> > > reality outside the novel, it's absolutely true! Add to that the fact
> >that
> > > the poem is a pastiche-"one oozy footprint" behind Frost, but
expressing
> >a
> > > sensibility very much in tune with V.N.'s own ("I loathe such things
as
> > > jazz," etc.)-and you have something that some might argue is not quite
> > > quantifiable on its own. But let's forget all that for the nonce. I
> >think
> >it
> > > is an often very moving work, with an interesting cinematic quality
> >(i.e.,
> > > the "intercutting" between the Shade's not-quite-channel surfing and
> >Hazel's
> > > journey to death) that isn't evident in the poets that Shade is based
> >on....
> > >
> > > GK
> > >
> > > > ----------
> > > > From: D. Barton Johnson
> > > > Reply To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 11:24 AM
> > > > To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> > > > Subject: Fw: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Dane Gill" <pennyparkerpark@hotmail.com>
> > > > > ---------------- Message requiring your approval (110
> > > > lines) ------------------
> > > > > Regardless of this I would still enjoyed reading the opions of
> >others
> > > > about
> > > > > the poem's literary value - does Nabokov consider it a work of
> >genius,
> > > > do
> > > > > youthe reader agree? I appreciate what you're saying Beau Shaw,
and
> >as
> > > > I've
> > > > > said, my opinion is already formed, however, were there nuances
or
> > > > aspects
> > > > > of Pale Fire brought to my attention that has hitherto eluded me,
> >that
> > > > > opinion may change (as it is based on little comparrison to other
> > > > poems).
> > > > > Thank you Dane Gill
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: "D. Barton Johnson" <chtodel@cox.net>
> > > > > >Reply-To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> > > > > >To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> > > > > >Subject: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
> > > > > >Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:08:27 -0700
> > > > > >
> > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >From: "Beau Shaw" <bs499@nyu.edu>
> > > > > >To: "Vladimir Nabokov Forum" <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> > > > > >Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:34 AM
> > > > > >Subject: Re: Pale Fire, the poem
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > This message was originally submitted by bs499@NYU.EDU to the
> > > > NABOKV-L
> > > > > >list at
> > > > > > > LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU. If you simply forward it back to the
> >list,
> > > > using
> > > > > >a
> > > > > >mail
> > > > > > > command that generates "Resent-" fields (ask your local user
> >support
> > > > or
> > > > > >consult
> > > > > > > the documentation of your mail program if in doubt), it will
be
> > > > > >distributed and
> > > > > > > the explanations you are now reading will be removed
> > > > automatically.
> > > > If
> > > > > >on the
> > > > > > > other hand you edit the contributions you receive into a
> >digest,
> > > > you
> > > > > >will
> > > > > >have
> > > > > > > to remove this paragraph manually. Finally, you should be
able
> >to
> > > > > >contact the
> > > > > > > author of this message by using the normal "reply"
function
> >of
> > > > > >your
> > > > > >mail
> > > > > > > program.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----------------- Message requiring your approval (53
> > > > > >lines) ------------------
> > > > > > > I don't think your opinion of Pale Fire (the poem) should be
> > > > "swayed"
> > > > by
> > > > > >our
> > > > > > > arguments! One does not "appreciate" literature (or anything
for
> > > > that
> > > > > > > matter, I suppose) by being instructed that it's good or not.
> >Sapere
> > > > > >aude
> > > > > > > :)Personally, on repeated readings, it strikes me as more and
> >more
> > > > > > > beautiful, and complex. -Beau Shaw
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: D. Barton Johnson <chtodel@cox.net>
> > > > > > > To: <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 11:05 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "Dane Gill" <pennyparkerpark@hotmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > ----------------- Message requiring your approval (24
> > > > > > > > lines) ------------------
> > > > > > > > > Greetings
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Is the poem in the novel, Pale Fire, supposed to be a
> > > > demonstration
> > > > > >of
> > > > > > > > > poetic genuis? Is the poem itself a represntation of
Shade's
> > > > > > > straitforward
> > > > > > > > > style, lacking in genuis, and just another indication of
> > > > Kinbote's
> > > > > > > > madness?
> > > > > > > > > I've discussed this before (not here) to no avail.
Basically
> > > > what
> > > > > >I'm
> > > > > > > > asking
> > > > > > > > > is this: Did Nabokov himself think the poem Pale Fire was
a
> >work
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > genius?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I've read (references elude me now - but something tells
me
> >it
> > > > was
> > > > > >Boyd,
> > > > > > > > > though not sure) that Pale Fire was actually the best
poetry
> > > > Nabokov
> > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > write. And as said in Strong Opinions, it was the most
> >trouble
> > > > he's
> > > > > >ever
> > > > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > > with a piece of writing. I'm not very good at judging
poetry
> > > > (almost
> > > > > > > never
> > > > > > > > > reading it) and certainly not ones this long (a novel in
> >verse?)
> > > > can
> > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > > give an invalid opinion here. Plae Fire strikes me as
> >somewhat
> > > > > > > > typical -the
> > > > > > > > > style, the rhyming scheem- it's been done many times
before.
> > > > This
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > > something not present is Nabokov's novels (though he
writes
> >very
> > > > > > > > poetical).
> > > > > > > > > As you have read, my opinion is weak and can easily be
> >swayed
> > > > with
> > > > > >the
> > > > > > > > right
> > > > > > > > > arguments. This novel is so beautiful.
> > > > > > > > > Dane Gill
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
> > > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
> > > > >
> > > >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
>
From: "Dane Gill" <pennyparkerpark@hotmail.com>
>
> ---------------- Message requiring your approval (239
lines) ------------------
> As far as I understand, the poem itself was written as a whole, as a
> seperate piece of work, quite removed from the Commentary - with the
obvious
> intention of having it interlock with the Commentary enventually .
However,
> this doesn't really answer whether it was written durring, after, or
before.
> But, it does lead one to surmise that Nabokov gave the poem his full
> attention as an individual piece of art, as opposed to simply "filling in
> the gaps" to the Commentary. The question arises though, whether Nabokov
was
> writing as Nabokov - as in "here's a poem I wrote, it is wonderful" - or
> writing "as" John Shade - as in "here's a poem some other guy wrote, my
> opinion of it is irrelevent." Did the difficulty Nabokov experienced while
> writng the poem come from his inability or unfamiliarity with poetry
writing
> (obviously not so) or because he was "writing" as someone else. In the
case
> of Lolita, HH actually writes like Nabokov, but it is not as important to
> that novel to give the illusion of a completely different author - nobody,
> with the exception of a few stary line from r. John Ray - is actually,
> critically, analysing Humbert's prose style within that novel. In the case
> of Pale Fire, however, Kinbote is doing exactly this (along with telling
his
> own tale). To have Kinbote write like Nabokov (which he does) is not a
> problem, but to have him analyse the work of someone else that writes like
> Nabokov might ruin the illusionof having two separate authors (this of
> course brings into question who wrote the poem, who wrote the
> commentary...but lets assume for the moment that it is supposed to be two
> separate authors). Therefore Nabokov would intentionally have to write a
> poem differently than he'd had written in the past (though some will say
the
> poem is one of the most Nabokovian things Nabokov ever read) and as a
result
> had to struggle to acheive this. Any comments?
>
> >From: "D. Barton Johnson" <chtodel@cox.net>
> >Reply-To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> >To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> >Subject: Fw: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
> >Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:01:48 -0700
> >
> >EDNOTE. GK prompts me to wonder somehing I should (but don't) know. Boyd
> >may
> >supply the answer. Was the poem composed before, during, or after the
> >"Commentary"?
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Kenny, Glenn" <gkenny@hfmus.com>
> > >
> > > ---------------- Message requiring your approval (164
> >lines) ------------------
> > > The first thing to remember is that, regardless of the illusion that
the
> > > poem is a stand-alone work, it most manifestly is not. Kinbote's
> >insistence
> > > that the poem has no existence without the commentary is, in the
context
> >of
> > > the novel, a kind of cruelty he inflicts on Shade's shade; but in the
> > > reality outside the novel, it's absolutely true! Add to that the fact
> >that
> > > the poem is a pastiche-"one oozy footprint" behind Frost, but
expressing
> >a
> > > sensibility very much in tune with V.N.'s own ("I loathe such things
as
> > > jazz," etc.)-and you have something that some might argue is not quite
> > > quantifiable on its own. But let's forget all that for the nonce. I
> >think
> >it
> > > is an often very moving work, with an interesting cinematic quality
> >(i.e.,
> > > the "intercutting" between the Shade's not-quite-channel surfing and
> >Hazel's
> > > journey to death) that isn't evident in the poets that Shade is based
> >on....
> > >
> > > GK
> > >
> > > > ----------
> > > > From: D. Barton Johnson
> > > > Reply To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 11:24 AM
> > > > To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> > > > Subject: Fw: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Dane Gill" <pennyparkerpark@hotmail.com>
> > > > > ---------------- Message requiring your approval (110
> > > > lines) ------------------
> > > > > Regardless of this I would still enjoyed reading the opions of
> >others
> > > > about
> > > > > the poem's literary value - does Nabokov consider it a work of
> >genius,
> > > > do
> > > > > youthe reader agree? I appreciate what you're saying Beau Shaw,
and
> >as
> > > > I've
> > > > > said, my opinion is already formed, however, were there nuances
or
> > > > aspects
> > > > > of Pale Fire brought to my attention that has hitherto eluded me,
> >that
> > > > > opinion may change (as it is based on little comparrison to other
> > > > poems).
> > > > > Thank you Dane Gill
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: "D. Barton Johnson" <chtodel@cox.net>
> > > > > >Reply-To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> > > > > >To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> > > > > >Subject: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
> > > > > >Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:08:27 -0700
> > > > > >
> > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >From: "Beau Shaw" <bs499@nyu.edu>
> > > > > >To: "Vladimir Nabokov Forum" <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> > > > > >Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:34 AM
> > > > > >Subject: Re: Pale Fire, the poem
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > This message was originally submitted by bs499@NYU.EDU to the
> > > > NABOKV-L
> > > > > >list at
> > > > > > > LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU. If you simply forward it back to the
> >list,
> > > > using
> > > > > >a
> > > > > > > command that generates "Resent-" fields (ask your local user
> >support
> > > > or
> > > > > >consult
> > > > > > > the documentation of your mail program if in doubt), it will
be
> > > > > >distributed and
> > > > > > > the explanations you are now reading will be removed
> > > > automatically.
> > > > If
> > > > > >on the
> > > > > > > other hand you edit the contributions you receive into a
> >digest,
> > > > you
> > > > > >will
> > > > > >have
> > > > > > > to remove this paragraph manually. Finally, you should be
able
> >to
> > > > > >contact the
> > > > > > > author of this message by using the normal "reply"
function
> >of
> > > > > >your
> > > > > > > program.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----------------- Message requiring your approval (53
> > > > > >lines) ------------------
> > > > > > > I don't think your opinion of Pale Fire (the poem) should be
> > > > "swayed"
> > > > by
> > > > > >our
> > > > > > > arguments! One does not "appreciate" literature (or anything
for
> > > > that
> > > > > > > matter, I suppose) by being instructed that it's good or not.
> >Sapere
> > > > > >aude
> > > > > > > :)Personally, on repeated readings, it strikes me as more and
> >more
> > > > > > > beautiful, and complex. -Beau Shaw
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: D. Barton Johnson <chtodel@cox.net>
> > > > > > > To: <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 11:05 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "Dane Gill" <pennyparkerpark@hotmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > ----------------- Message requiring your approval (24
> > > > > > > > lines) ------------------
> > > > > > > > > Greetings
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Is the poem in the novel, Pale Fire, supposed to be a
> > > > demonstration
> > > > > >of
> > > > > > > > > poetic genuis? Is the poem itself a represntation of
Shade's
> > > > > > > straitforward
> > > > > > > > > style, lacking in genuis, and just another indication of
> > > > Kinbote's
> > > > > > > > madness?
> > > > > > > > > I've discussed this before (not here) to no avail.
Basically
> > > > what
> > > > > >I'm
> > > > > > > > asking
> > > > > > > > > is this: Did Nabokov himself think the poem Pale Fire was
a
> >work
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > genius?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I've read (references elude me now - but something tells
me
> >it
> > > > was
> > > > > >Boyd,
> > > > > > > > > though not sure) that Pale Fire was actually the best
poetry
> > > > Nabokov
> > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > write. And as said in Strong Opinions, it was the most
> >trouble
> > > > he's
> > > > > >ever
> > > > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > > with a piece of writing. I'm not very good at judging
poetry
> > > > (almost
> > > > > > > never
> > > > > > > > > reading it) and certainly not ones this long (a novel in
> >verse?)
> > > > can
> > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > > give an invalid opinion here. Plae Fire strikes me as
> >somewhat
> > > > > > > > typical -the
> > > > > > > > > style, the rhyming scheem- it's been done many times
before.
> > > > This
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > > something not present is Nabokov's novels (though he
writes
> >very
> > > > > > > > poetical).
> > > > > > > > > As you have read, my opinion is weak and can easily be
> >swayed
> > > > with
> > > > > >the
> > > > > > > > right
> > > > > > > > > arguments. This novel is so beautiful.
> > > > > > > > > Dane Gill
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
> > > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
> > > > >
> > > >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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