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Fw: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3487 PALE FIRE
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----- Original Message -----
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 8:08 AM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3487
>
> pynchon-l-digest Wednesday, August 13 2003 Volume 02 : Number
3487
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:47:15 +1000
> From: jbor <jbor@bigpond.com>
> Subject: Re: [NPPF] Canto 4
>
>
> > --- Terrance <lycidas2@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> This Canto is pretty awful.
>
> on 13/8/03 4:16 AM, David Morris at fqmorris@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > I think it's supposed to be pretty awful.
>
> Heresy!
>
> Yeah, I agree. Shade aspires to "hoist the poetesque" (868), and I think
he
> actually manages to do it. Ugh.
>
> best
>
)
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:17:26 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF (Commentary) Heraldry
>
> More assholery from the Millison. Things here have been running along
smoothly
> for weeks (a miracle!), but Doug's not been getting enough attention, so
it's
> time to create a problem where none exists...
>
> DM
>
> - --- pynchonoid <pynchonoid@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I'm just loving the way the Nabokov project is
> > contributing to a better understanding of Pynchon and
> > the rest of that cross-fertilization razzmatazz that
> > was used to justify this vanity project for a few
> > P-listers.
> >
> > Bait and switch, that's what it looks like to me.
> >
> > Meanwhile, a Pynchon-reading friend has checked into
> > the P-list three times now recently, and each time has
> > chosen not to subscribe, puzzled by the huge chunks of
> > stuff about Nabokov containing nothing about Pynchon.
> >
> > The Pale Fire discussion should move to another venue, imo.
> >
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:20:37 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Taking Pale Fire Elsewhere
>
> There is no reason to do so. There has been no problem. And there are
more
> than just a few of us. I will not go offlist with this.
>
> - --- s~Z <keithsz@concentric.net> wrote:
> > I agree with slothenvypride and Doug. Since there are only a very few of
us
> > participating in NPPF, would those participating like to take it
offlist? We
> > can create our own list in our address books and have the discussion
amongst
> > ourselves. I would prefer that.
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:22:08 -0400
> From: Terrance <lycidas2@earthlink.net>
> Subject: re: The Professor & the Mad-Dead Poet Society
>
> Nabokov's novels are full of madness. Mad poets. Mad Professors.
>
> He comes to America.
> To write fairy tales.
>
> Cherrycoke, like mad Ishmael returning from the sea, like Slothrop's
> reversed vomiting of the deep, boards Faucault's prison ship of fools.
>
> To escape the madness of Europe?
>
> To find a voice in America?
>
> A free voice?
>
>
> What is Pynchon's Vineland about? Madness? 1984? What?
>
> Bunch of poets, painters, musicians, actors, artists taking refuge,
> taking jobs as waiters and landscapers in Vineland the Good?
>
> In Russia, denouncements, purges, mass deportations, mass arrests, or
> unexplained disappearances--a poet's noninvolvement, his or her
> apolitical lyrical incursion into a wholly private world, metaphysical
> speculation, or spiritual exploration, became the most political of
> statements and was so understood by the poet, the public, and the state
> organs of repression.
>
> Perhaps poets were listened to because of the unique potential for oral
> literature to avoid censorship. The prodigious Russian memory for verse
> can perpetuate what can never exist in printed form. Perhaps poets were
> listened to out of sheer respect because being a poet involved enormous
> risk.
>
> Russian poets were not shipped off to America. They died in prison. In
> Russian prisons and in German prisons too. Nikolai Gumilyov never even
> made it to prison, he was executed for his crimes. Leonid Lavrov and
> Daniil Andreyev, both died shortly after being released from long
> imprisonment. The families of both Akhmatova and Tsvetayeva were
> imprisoned and murdered. Yesenin, Mayakovsky, Tsvetayeva, and Aleksandr
> Bashlacov, overwhelmed by despair, committed suicide. Maksim Gorky died,
> reportedly from a mysterious poisoning. Dmitry Kedrin was assassinated,
> thrown off a train. Olga Bergholts, who literally had her unborn child
> beaten out of her during police interrogations wrote,
>
> No, destiny has not offended me,
> It generously gave me its rewards:
> Both sent me to Yezhov's prisons,
> And dragged me into psycho wards.
>
> It led me through the blockade,
> Passing dead loved ones each day,
> And took my ultimate delight--
> The joy of motherhood away.
>
>
>
> Yury Galanskov died in prison in 1972. Natalya Gorbanevskya was held in
> a psychiatric prison. Irina Ratushinskaya and Joseph Brodsky were
> imprisoned and exiled. The poets fled. Where? To Vineland the Good? It
> wasn't only the poets, the artists, everyone suffered. But poets
> suffered no less than bankers and cops. But poets, if their suffering is
> not more or less is unique because they suffer in unique ways by being
> poets. In America, the poet can take refuge in the University. Not in
> Russia.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:32:42 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Dave Monroe <monrovius@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF (Commentary) Heraldry
>
> Reflexivity, self- or otherwise. Tres postmoderne ...
>
> - --- David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > More assholery from the Millison. Things here have
> > been running along smoothly for weeks (a miracle!),
> > but Doug's not been getting enough attention, so
> > it's time to create a problem where none exists...
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:42:17 +0100
> From: "James Kyllo" <jkyllo@clara.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF (Commentary) Heraldry
>
> For a "merman azure" see the 16th design at:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/Esctherald/0107/0107.html
>
> James
>
> ------------------------------
>
.
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:38:38 -0400
> From: Terrance <lycidas2@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: The Professor & his Feminist Student
>
> With the rise of Feminism, novelists like Doris Lessing and Margaret
> Atwood aroused excited attention. Someone so decidedly male as Nabokov,
> equipped by his upbringing with gentlemanly notions of honor and more
> comfortable with woman as muse than woman as writer, seemed a relic of
> the past. After all, it was he who had created Humbert, for whom Lolita
> barely exists except as a mere object of *his* emotion and *his*
> imagination. It could be easily overlooked that for Nabokov Lolita was
> quite a different creature, a person in her own right, and one of the
> characters he found most admirable in all his works, or that his book
> seethed with indignation of Humbert's manipulation of *all* the women in
> his life. (Boyd, VN)
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:48:06 -0400
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3487
> ********************************
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to waste@waste.org
> with "unsubscribe pynchon-l-digest" in the message body.
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 8:08 AM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3487
>
> pynchon-l-digest Wednesday, August 13 2003 Volume 02 : Number
3487
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:47:15 +1000
> From: jbor <jbor@bigpond.com>
> Subject: Re: [NPPF] Canto 4
>
>
> > --- Terrance <lycidas2@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> This Canto is pretty awful.
>
> on 13/8/03 4:16 AM, David Morris at fqmorris@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > I think it's supposed to be pretty awful.
>
> Heresy!
>
> Yeah, I agree. Shade aspires to "hoist the poetesque" (868), and I think
he
> actually manages to do it. Ugh.
>
> best
>
)
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:17:26 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF (Commentary) Heraldry
>
> More assholery from the Millison. Things here have been running along
smoothly
> for weeks (a miracle!), but Doug's not been getting enough attention, so
it's
> time to create a problem where none exists...
>
> DM
>
> - --- pynchonoid <pynchonoid@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I'm just loving the way the Nabokov project is
> > contributing to a better understanding of Pynchon and
> > the rest of that cross-fertilization razzmatazz that
> > was used to justify this vanity project for a few
> > P-listers.
> >
> > Bait and switch, that's what it looks like to me.
> >
> > Meanwhile, a Pynchon-reading friend has checked into
> > the P-list three times now recently, and each time has
> > chosen not to subscribe, puzzled by the huge chunks of
> > stuff about Nabokov containing nothing about Pynchon.
> >
> > The Pale Fire discussion should move to another venue, imo.
> >
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:20:37 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Taking Pale Fire Elsewhere
>
> There is no reason to do so. There has been no problem. And there are
more
> than just a few of us. I will not go offlist with this.
>
> - --- s~Z <keithsz@concentric.net> wrote:
> > I agree with slothenvypride and Doug. Since there are only a very few of
us
> > participating in NPPF, would those participating like to take it
offlist? We
> > can create our own list in our address books and have the discussion
amongst
> > ourselves. I would prefer that.
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:22:08 -0400
> From: Terrance <lycidas2@earthlink.net>
> Subject: re: The Professor & the Mad-Dead Poet Society
>
> Nabokov's novels are full of madness. Mad poets. Mad Professors.
>
> He comes to America.
> To write fairy tales.
>
> Cherrycoke, like mad Ishmael returning from the sea, like Slothrop's
> reversed vomiting of the deep, boards Faucault's prison ship of fools.
>
> To escape the madness of Europe?
>
> To find a voice in America?
>
> A free voice?
>
>
> What is Pynchon's Vineland about? Madness? 1984? What?
>
> Bunch of poets, painters, musicians, actors, artists taking refuge,
> taking jobs as waiters and landscapers in Vineland the Good?
>
> In Russia, denouncements, purges, mass deportations, mass arrests, or
> unexplained disappearances--a poet's noninvolvement, his or her
> apolitical lyrical incursion into a wholly private world, metaphysical
> speculation, or spiritual exploration, became the most political of
> statements and was so understood by the poet, the public, and the state
> organs of repression.
>
> Perhaps poets were listened to because of the unique potential for oral
> literature to avoid censorship. The prodigious Russian memory for verse
> can perpetuate what can never exist in printed form. Perhaps poets were
> listened to out of sheer respect because being a poet involved enormous
> risk.
>
> Russian poets were not shipped off to America. They died in prison. In
> Russian prisons and in German prisons too. Nikolai Gumilyov never even
> made it to prison, he was executed for his crimes. Leonid Lavrov and
> Daniil Andreyev, both died shortly after being released from long
> imprisonment. The families of both Akhmatova and Tsvetayeva were
> imprisoned and murdered. Yesenin, Mayakovsky, Tsvetayeva, and Aleksandr
> Bashlacov, overwhelmed by despair, committed suicide. Maksim Gorky died,
> reportedly from a mysterious poisoning. Dmitry Kedrin was assassinated,
> thrown off a train. Olga Bergholts, who literally had her unborn child
> beaten out of her during police interrogations wrote,
>
> No, destiny has not offended me,
> It generously gave me its rewards:
> Both sent me to Yezhov's prisons,
> And dragged me into psycho wards.
>
> It led me through the blockade,
> Passing dead loved ones each day,
> And took my ultimate delight--
> The joy of motherhood away.
>
>
>
> Yury Galanskov died in prison in 1972. Natalya Gorbanevskya was held in
> a psychiatric prison. Irina Ratushinskaya and Joseph Brodsky were
> imprisoned and exiled. The poets fled. Where? To Vineland the Good? It
> wasn't only the poets, the artists, everyone suffered. But poets
> suffered no less than bankers and cops. But poets, if their suffering is
> not more or less is unique because they suffer in unique ways by being
> poets. In America, the poet can take refuge in the University. Not in
> Russia.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:32:42 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Dave Monroe <monrovius@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF (Commentary) Heraldry
>
> Reflexivity, self- or otherwise. Tres postmoderne ...
>
> - --- David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > More assholery from the Millison. Things here have
> > been running along smoothly for weeks (a miracle!),
> > but Doug's not been getting enough attention, so
> > it's time to create a problem where none exists...
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:42:17 +0100
> From: "James Kyllo" <jkyllo@clara.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF (Commentary) Heraldry
>
> For a "merman azure" see the 16th design at:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/Esctherald/0107/0107.html
>
> James
>
> ------------------------------
>
.
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:38:38 -0400
> From: Terrance <lycidas2@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: The Professor & his Feminist Student
>
> With the rise of Feminism, novelists like Doris Lessing and Margaret
> Atwood aroused excited attention. Someone so decidedly male as Nabokov,
> equipped by his upbringing with gentlemanly notions of honor and more
> comfortable with woman as muse than woman as writer, seemed a relic of
> the past. After all, it was he who had created Humbert, for whom Lolita
> barely exists except as a mere object of *his* emotion and *his*
> imagination. It could be easily overlooked that for Nabokov Lolita was
> quite a different creature, a person in her own right, and one of the
> characters he found most admirable in all his works, or that his book
> seethed with indignation of Humbert's manipulation of *all* the women in
> his life. (Boyd, VN)
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:48:06 -0400
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3487
> ********************************
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to waste@waste.org
> with "unsubscribe pynchon-l-digest" in the message body.