Subject
Re: Cruelty
From
Date
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Dear Jim,
Thank you for pointing out my unintentional condensation of Spiegelman with
R. Crumb. But I am glad we now have another artist to consider in re
cruelty and art, along with the other cartoonists I mentioned. I know it is
(& I knew it was) R. Crumb, so of course my mistake is of interest.
I attended the Neosincerity exhibit in NYC, and the panel with Spiegelman
and Alex Melamid held at the exhibit. If it interests you, Spiegelman wrote
an article about Neosincerity after that in Harper's, modeled on the talk he
gave at the panel. I may have a copy of it somewhere in digital form. It's
not as good as the illustrated talk he gave, however, though the article is
illustrated too. If I find it I could post it to this list if desired.
I believe better-informed reviews of Crumb's *Genesis *can be found in art
magazines and journals. I think the one I read was in *Bookforum*, an
offshoot of *Artforum*, I think. Thanks very much for the link to the Alter
article.
I'm sorry the cartoons I sent by attachment came out so small. I realized
later that a better way to see them is via these links:
*
*
*Cartoon Links (re artists' & cruelty)*:
http://www.cartoonbank.com/1998/Take-my-wife-please/invt/117033\nshared<http://www.cartoonbank.com/1998/Take-my-wife-please/invt/117033%5Cnshared>vid
http://addthis.com
http://www.cartoonbank.com/2008/We-will-always-have-Paris/invt/131645\nshared<http://www.cartoonbank.com/2008/We-will-always-have-Paris/invt/131645%5Cnshared>vid
http://addthis.com
http://www.cartoonbank.com/1998/And-just-to-be-on-the-safe-side-tongue-of-attorney/invt/117981\nshared<http://www.cartoonbank.com/1998/And-just-to-be-on-the-safe-side-tongue-of-attorney/invt/117981%5Cnshared>vid
http://addthis.com
http://www.cartoonbank.com/2008/We-will-always-have-Paris/invt/131645\nshared<http://www.cartoonbank.com/2008/We-will-always-have-Paris/invt/131645%5Cnshared>vid
http://addthis.com
*Jim Twiggs: *"*The article mentions an exhibition called Neosincerity: The
Difference Between the Comic and the Cosmic Is a Single Letter--the subtitle
being, obviously, a reference to VN."
I suspect, but I do not know, that VN reference was inserted by Alex
Melamid, a Russian wit (I see you looked up his art work). And the
political issues regarding the Danish cartoons matters certainly raise
questions about cruelty and art that I'm sure can pertain to VN's work and
thought. Spiegelman told us about a subsequent contest put forth in Iran
(Iran, I *think*): the contest was: who could make the most anti-Semitic
cartoon. Israeli cartoonists tried to win the contest and invited
Spiegelman to submit. Spiegelman spoke at the panel about his thought and
drawing processes in trying to complete the task, and explained his
reasoning about what he finally selected and rejected. That was subtle and
I found it explained insufficiently in the subsequent article in *Harper's*.
I don't know if he's put out something more on the topic.
Thanks so much for all the other references. By the way, I think (I'm
guessing) art savvy feminists (of which I am one) are not on R. Crumb's
case. Regarding his wife and daughter, I don't think being female makes one
a feminist, though they may be, and I don't think being male makes one not a
feminist.
I appreciate your note very much.
*
Barrie
--
Barrie Karp, Ph.D., Philosophy
barriekarp@gmail.com
New York City!
On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 7:21 PM, James Twiggs <jtwigzz@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Barrie--
>
> I enjoyed your note and also the cartoons you sent. I hope you won't mind
> my making a correction. It's Robert Crumb, not Art Spiegelman, who did the
> Book of Genesis that was excerpted in *The New Yorker *and was criticized
> by Bloom. Robert Alter, though, praised the book in *The New Republic*:
>
> Scripture Picture
> http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/scripture-picture
>
>
> Feminists--not all of them but a good many--have been on Crumb's case from
> the early days of *Zap* comix in the 1960s. It's worth noting, though,
> that both his wife and his daughter are cartoonists who often collaborate
> with him.
>
> As for Spiegelman, he's discussed at some length in Brian Boyd's recent
> essay on comic strips, written from a literary Darwinist perspective:
>
> *On the Origins of Comics:
> New York Double-take*
>
> *
>
> http://aliceandrews.tumblr.com/
>
>
>
> *
> As for VN and comics, the essays by Brown and Shapiro are both well worth
> reading, along with all the pages on comics in Appel's wonderful *Nabokov's
> Dark Cinema.*
> *
> *
> *Thanks for putting us on to the Komar & Melamid stuff, which is indeed
> pretty far out, and for introducing the term "neosincerity." I found a
> discussion of it here:*
>
> *http://www.nextbookpress.com/arts-and-culture/712/sincerity-now/*
>
> *The article mentions an exhibition called Neosincerity: The Difference
> Between the Comic and the Cosmic Is a Single Letter--the subtitle being,
> obviously, a reference to VN.*
>
> Jim Twiggs
>
> *
> *
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Barrie Karp <barriekarp@GMAIL.COM>
>
> *To:* NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> *Sent:* Fri, April 9, 2010 11:02:12 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [NABOKV-L] Cruelty
>
> Fascinating discussion about cruelty and art.
>
> Some obliquely-related items, perhaps—
>
> The rendering in *Art Spiegelman's* *Maus*.
>
> Regarding same author's recent *Book of Genesis*—I read the excerpt in *The
> New Yorker* earlier this year and loved it (it was just a few pages). I
> sought some reviews and one by *Harold Bloom* simply dismissed and
> disparaged the book because he said the women in *Genesis* are “supposed”
> to be beautiful and he did not think *Art Spiegelman's* women in his *
> Genesis* were beautiful. Some of us thought *Spiegelman* succeeded in
> commenting on certain received ideas of beauty and that his women are
> beautiful, and that Bloom’s view is sheer rigid prejudice. Other
> feminists objected to all of *Spiegelman's* women and some to all of his
> work. (The other review by someone who understood visual art was more
> intelligent about the visual aspects of the book. I eventually bought the
> book but have not had time to read much or recently.) (Also interesting
> are *Spiegelman’s* ideas about “*neosincerity*,” about which I heard him
> speak with *Alex* *Melamid* (formerly of *Komar & Melamid*—take a look at
> *their* art) and in re the *Danish cartoons debates* in recent years.)
>
> Just some fragments.
>
> And to follow up on those, the attached *Mankoff* cartoon published right
> when he died of course, *with* Henny Youngman’s *obituary *in a 1998 issue
> of *The New Yorker,* comes to mind.
>
> And also the two attached *Shanahan* cartoons from *The New Yorker*.
>
> Barrie
>
> --
> Barrie Karp, Ph.D., Philosophy
> barriekarp@gmail.com
> New York City!
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Jansy <jansy@aetern.us> wrote:
>
> Search the archive<http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=site:listserv.ucsb.edu&HL=en> Contact
> the Editors Visit "Nabokov Online Journal" <http://www.nabokovonline.com> Visit
> Zembla <http://www.libraries.psu.edu/nabokov/zembla.htm> View Nabokv-L
> Policies <http://web.utk.edu/%7Esblackwe/EDNote.htm> Manage subscription
> options <http://listserv.ucsb.edu/>
>
> All private editorial communications, without exception, are read by both
> co-editors.
>
> Search the archive<http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=site:listserv.ucsb.edu&HL=en> Contact
> the Editors <nabokv-l@utk.edu,nabokv-l@holycross.edu> Visit "Nabokov
> Online Journal" <http://www.nabokovonline.com> Visit Zembla<http://www.libraries.psu.edu/nabokov/zembla.htm> View
> Nabokv-L Policies <http://web.utk.edu/%7Esblackwe/EDNote.htm> Manage
> subscription options <http://listserv.ucsb.edu/>
>
> All private editorial communications, without exception, are read by both
> co-editors.
>
Search archive with Google:
http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=site:listserv.ucsb.edu&HL=en
Contact the Editors: mailto:nabokv-l@utk.edu,nabokv-l@holycross.edu
Visit Zembla: http://www.libraries.psu.edu/nabokov/zembla.htm
View Nabokv-L policies: http://web.utk.edu/~sblackwe/EDNote.htm
Visit "Nabokov Online Journal:" http://www.nabokovonline.com
Manage subscription options: http://listserv.ucsb.edu/
Thank you for pointing out my unintentional condensation of Spiegelman with
R. Crumb. But I am glad we now have another artist to consider in re
cruelty and art, along with the other cartoonists I mentioned. I know it is
(& I knew it was) R. Crumb, so of course my mistake is of interest.
I attended the Neosincerity exhibit in NYC, and the panel with Spiegelman
and Alex Melamid held at the exhibit. If it interests you, Spiegelman wrote
an article about Neosincerity after that in Harper's, modeled on the talk he
gave at the panel. I may have a copy of it somewhere in digital form. It's
not as good as the illustrated talk he gave, however, though the article is
illustrated too. If I find it I could post it to this list if desired.
I believe better-informed reviews of Crumb's *Genesis *can be found in art
magazines and journals. I think the one I read was in *Bookforum*, an
offshoot of *Artforum*, I think. Thanks very much for the link to the Alter
article.
I'm sorry the cartoons I sent by attachment came out so small. I realized
later that a better way to see them is via these links:
*
*
*Cartoon Links (re artists' & cruelty)*:
http://www.cartoonbank.com/1998/Take-my-wife-please/invt/117033\nshared<http://www.cartoonbank.com/1998/Take-my-wife-please/invt/117033%5Cnshared>vid
http://addthis.com
http://www.cartoonbank.com/2008/We-will-always-have-Paris/invt/131645\nshared<http://www.cartoonbank.com/2008/We-will-always-have-Paris/invt/131645%5Cnshared>vid
http://addthis.com
http://www.cartoonbank.com/1998/And-just-to-be-on-the-safe-side-tongue-of-attorney/invt/117981\nshared<http://www.cartoonbank.com/1998/And-just-to-be-on-the-safe-side-tongue-of-attorney/invt/117981%5Cnshared>vid
http://addthis.com
http://www.cartoonbank.com/2008/We-will-always-have-Paris/invt/131645\nshared<http://www.cartoonbank.com/2008/We-will-always-have-Paris/invt/131645%5Cnshared>vid
http://addthis.com
*Jim Twiggs: *"*The article mentions an exhibition called Neosincerity: The
Difference Between the Comic and the Cosmic Is a Single Letter--the subtitle
being, obviously, a reference to VN."
I suspect, but I do not know, that VN reference was inserted by Alex
Melamid, a Russian wit (I see you looked up his art work). And the
political issues regarding the Danish cartoons matters certainly raise
questions about cruelty and art that I'm sure can pertain to VN's work and
thought. Spiegelman told us about a subsequent contest put forth in Iran
(Iran, I *think*): the contest was: who could make the most anti-Semitic
cartoon. Israeli cartoonists tried to win the contest and invited
Spiegelman to submit. Spiegelman spoke at the panel about his thought and
drawing processes in trying to complete the task, and explained his
reasoning about what he finally selected and rejected. That was subtle and
I found it explained insufficiently in the subsequent article in *Harper's*.
I don't know if he's put out something more on the topic.
Thanks so much for all the other references. By the way, I think (I'm
guessing) art savvy feminists (of which I am one) are not on R. Crumb's
case. Regarding his wife and daughter, I don't think being female makes one
a feminist, though they may be, and I don't think being male makes one not a
feminist.
I appreciate your note very much.
*
Barrie
--
Barrie Karp, Ph.D., Philosophy
barriekarp@gmail.com
New York City!
On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 7:21 PM, James Twiggs <jtwigzz@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Barrie--
>
> I enjoyed your note and also the cartoons you sent. I hope you won't mind
> my making a correction. It's Robert Crumb, not Art Spiegelman, who did the
> Book of Genesis that was excerpted in *The New Yorker *and was criticized
> by Bloom. Robert Alter, though, praised the book in *The New Republic*:
>
> Scripture Picture
> http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/scripture-picture
>
>
> Feminists--not all of them but a good many--have been on Crumb's case from
> the early days of *Zap* comix in the 1960s. It's worth noting, though,
> that both his wife and his daughter are cartoonists who often collaborate
> with him.
>
> As for Spiegelman, he's discussed at some length in Brian Boyd's recent
> essay on comic strips, written from a literary Darwinist perspective:
>
> *On the Origins of Comics:
> New York Double-take*
>
> *
>
> http://aliceandrews.tumblr.com/
>
>
>
> *
> As for VN and comics, the essays by Brown and Shapiro are both well worth
> reading, along with all the pages on comics in Appel's wonderful *Nabokov's
> Dark Cinema.*
> *
> *
> *Thanks for putting us on to the Komar & Melamid stuff, which is indeed
> pretty far out, and for introducing the term "neosincerity." I found a
> discussion of it here:*
>
> *http://www.nextbookpress.com/arts-and-culture/712/sincerity-now/*
>
> *The article mentions an exhibition called Neosincerity: The Difference
> Between the Comic and the Cosmic Is a Single Letter--the subtitle being,
> obviously, a reference to VN.*
>
> Jim Twiggs
>
> *
> *
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Barrie Karp <barriekarp@GMAIL.COM>
>
> *To:* NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> *Sent:* Fri, April 9, 2010 11:02:12 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [NABOKV-L] Cruelty
>
> Fascinating discussion about cruelty and art.
>
> Some obliquely-related items, perhaps—
>
> The rendering in *Art Spiegelman's* *Maus*.
>
> Regarding same author's recent *Book of Genesis*—I read the excerpt in *The
> New Yorker* earlier this year and loved it (it was just a few pages). I
> sought some reviews and one by *Harold Bloom* simply dismissed and
> disparaged the book because he said the women in *Genesis* are “supposed”
> to be beautiful and he did not think *Art Spiegelman's* women in his *
> Genesis* were beautiful. Some of us thought *Spiegelman* succeeded in
> commenting on certain received ideas of beauty and that his women are
> beautiful, and that Bloom’s view is sheer rigid prejudice. Other
> feminists objected to all of *Spiegelman's* women and some to all of his
> work. (The other review by someone who understood visual art was more
> intelligent about the visual aspects of the book. I eventually bought the
> book but have not had time to read much or recently.) (Also interesting
> are *Spiegelman’s* ideas about “*neosincerity*,” about which I heard him
> speak with *Alex* *Melamid* (formerly of *Komar & Melamid*—take a look at
> *their* art) and in re the *Danish cartoons debates* in recent years.)
>
> Just some fragments.
>
> And to follow up on those, the attached *Mankoff* cartoon published right
> when he died of course, *with* Henny Youngman’s *obituary *in a 1998 issue
> of *The New Yorker,* comes to mind.
>
> And also the two attached *Shanahan* cartoons from *The New Yorker*.
>
> Barrie
>
> --
> Barrie Karp, Ph.D., Philosophy
> barriekarp@gmail.com
> New York City!
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Jansy <jansy@aetern.us> wrote:
>
> Search the archive<http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=site:listserv.ucsb.edu&HL=en> Contact
> the Editors Visit "Nabokov Online Journal" <http://www.nabokovonline.com> Visit
> Zembla <http://www.libraries.psu.edu/nabokov/zembla.htm> View Nabokv-L
> Policies <http://web.utk.edu/%7Esblackwe/EDNote.htm> Manage subscription
> options <http://listserv.ucsb.edu/>
>
> All private editorial communications, without exception, are read by both
> co-editors.
>
> Search the archive<http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=site:listserv.ucsb.edu&HL=en> Contact
> the Editors <nabokv-l@utk.edu,nabokv-l@holycross.edu> Visit "Nabokov
> Online Journal" <http://www.nabokovonline.com> Visit Zembla<http://www.libraries.psu.edu/nabokov/zembla.htm> View
> Nabokv-L Policies <http://web.utk.edu/%7Esblackwe/EDNote.htm> Manage
> subscription options <http://listserv.ucsb.edu/>
>
> All private editorial communications, without exception, are read by both
> co-editors.
>
Search archive with Google:
http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=site:listserv.ucsb.edu&HL=en
Contact the Editors: mailto:nabokv-l@utk.edu,nabokv-l@holycross.edu
Visit Zembla: http://www.libraries.psu.edu/nabokov/zembla.htm
View Nabokv-L policies: http://web.utk.edu/~sblackwe/EDNote.htm
Visit "Nabokov Online Journal:" http://www.nabokovonline.com
Manage subscription options: http://listserv.ucsb.edu/