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Fw: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3384
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From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 18:48:48 +0100
> From: "Burns, Erik" <Erik.Burns@dowjones.com>
> Subject: VLVL/NPPF - on relating VN with TRP
>
> Foax:
>
> Not to be overly Kinbotic about it, but _Vineland_ is, of course, an
> extended gloss on _Pale Fire_. Anyone paying attention should have
> realized that immediately. It centers on a pivotal quote on page 366, Weed
> to Prairie:
>
> "Rex, why? He's only the ceremonial trigger finger, just a stooge, same
> as Frenesi. Used to think I was climbing step by step, right? toward a
> resolution -- first Rex, above him your mother, then Brock Vond, then
> - -- but that's when it begins to go dark, and that door at the top I
> thought I saw isn't there anymore, because the light behind it just
> went off too."
>
> Where are they? "...around Shade Creek..." (two grafs lower).
>
> .....a bigger, more respectable, competent Gradus?
>
> in jest, natch.
>
> etb
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:41:54 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Dave Monroe <monrovius@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Pale Fire/Borges Linked to P
>
> Jorge Luis Borges, ⌠Pierre Menard, autor del Quijote■,
> Ficciones (fragmento) ...
>
> http://www2.mt.tama.hosei.ac.jp/~yanataka/Borges.doc
>
> Jorge Luis Borges
> Pierre Menard, Author of Don Quixote
> To Silvina Ocampo
>
>
http://textz.gnutenberg.net/textz/borges_jorge_luis_pierre_menard_author_of_don_quixote.txt
>
> - --- cfalbert <calbert@hslboxmaster.com> wrote:
> >
> > Michael Wood identifies Borges' "Pierre Menard,
> > Author of the Quixote" as a model for PF.......
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 05:00:35 +1000
> From: jbor <jbor@bigpond.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Preliminary - Pale Fire
>
> on 9/7/03 4:05 PM, Mondegreen wrote:
>
> > Regarding Shade, the poet: Brian Boyd is emphatic that Shade's Pale Fire
is
> > major stuff.
>
> In what sense? The poetry is Nabokov's, after all, and Shade is a
fictional
> character, as you acknowledge. Shade's life experiences, which provide him
> with his poetic (and *emotional*) content, and his work habits, are also
> fictitious. So there's an aesthetic buffer in place to begin with. The
> alternation between metaphysical grandiosity and utter banality in the
poem
> strikes me as quite deliberately funny, but I have the feeling I'm
laughing
> at Shade rather than with him, and that he takes himself as a poet quite
as
> seriously as Kinbote does (eg. ll. 423-6). The very idea that a poet would
> write a "daily quota" of lines on the topic of, among others, his own
> daughter's suicide, is pretty appalling. Kinbote aside, there's an ironic
> distance -- quite an expansive one imo -- between Shade and Nabokov as
well.
>
> > Certainly Nabokov's Shade's Pale Fire is a masterpiece, but I
> > find the author behind the author to be winking or smiling through the
> > lines, some of which have an apparently unconsciously droll --even if
> > simultaneously tragic-- ring, or at least a parodic character; homely
lines
> > of a homely author. For example: a few lines after the extraordinarily
> > evocative line 57 "The phantom of my little daughter's swing," there is
> > "TV's huge paperclip"; line 76-78 "certain words...such as 'bad heart'
> > always to him refer, And 'cancer of the pancreas' to her" (true and
> > touching, but gulptious); and Nabokov's arch lines (beginning with 295)
> > that introduce the theme of Hazel's unattractiveness in the eyes of her
> > parents: "At first we'd smile and say: All little girls are plump'"
> > ..."'That's the awkward age.'" ..."....'Less starch, more fruit!'" ...
> > "...that nice frail roommate, now a nun" ..."almost fetching". These
sad,
> > laughable, impish lines, and John Shade's closeup focus on his
daughter's
> > physical defects, her "swollen feet" and "psoriatic fingernails," (355)
and
> > his readiness to share these minutae with the world, inform the reader
that
> > for Shade this unattractiveness is integrally and inevitably linked to
> > unhappiness, Hazel's and his own. Does he ever inquire or --like David
> > Morris-- wonder if Hazel's misery might derive from any cause or causes
> > other than her bodily appearance? "She'd criticize Ferociously our
> > projects" (352), but I don't think Shade ever took the hint.
>
> Yes, I don't think Shade ever recognises Hazel's sense of her parents'
> disappointment as one of the factors behind her depression and suicide.
>
> best
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 12:36:25 -0700 (PDT)
> From: pynchonoid <pynchonoid@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3383
>
> Because these things seem to take on a life of their
> own here on Pynchon-L: I not posting to the P-list
> under any name other than pynchonoid@yahoo.com.
>
> Pathetic but predictable to learn that
> fqmorrris@yahoo.com has tired of the Pale Fire reading
> already. I guess it got tired of the other group
> members reminding it to read the novel before making
> stupid claims.
>
> Watching fqmorrris@yahoo.com struggling to come to
> grips with this novel -- without having read it -- is
> the funniest thing I've seen all summer.
>
>
>
> >Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 05:19:05 -0700 (PDT)
> >From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> >Subject: Re: We dont really care about Kinbote ...
>
> >Doug, the one-note wonder with mant masks:
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 16:09:57 EDT
> From: MalignD@aol.com
> Subject: Re: NPPF -- Why care about Kinbote?
>
> - --part1_f5.2ee96082.2c3dd095_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> > <<Beauty plus Pity. That is as close as we get to a definition of Art.>>
> >
> Not so shameless as to let this stand as perhaps being understood as your
> own, are you?
>
>
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 16:40:37 EDT
> From: MalignD@aol.com
> Subject: Re: NPPF -- Why care about Kinbote?
>
> - --part1_1ab.178622b2.2c3dd7c5_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> I must say that I find the caption of this string depressing, the idea
that
> one needs characters that are likeable, that one can identify with, that
one
> can "care" about.
>
> Kinbote is pretty richly on the page: witty, appalling, narcissisitic,
> delusional, grandiose, a ping-pong enthusiast -- not enough for you?
>
> Not to pick unnecessarily on TP, but to offer an example to hand: did
you
> find yourselves "caring" about either of those two-dimensional effigies,
Mason
> or Dixon?
>
>>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 13:42:10 -0700 (PDT)
> From: slothenvypride <slothenvypride7@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: We dont really care about Kinbote ...
>
> - --0-35317573-1057783330=:44154
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Imagine my astonishment when Mr. Morris chose to respond to one of my
posts. Heretofore, I'd been under the impression that he has me "blocked"
from his inbox for fear of having to respond to my sundry inquiries.
>
> Regarding being answerable, Mr. Morris, you are merely answerable for your
own actions and words, and you, as well as many others, indicated last month
that this reading of Pale Fire would somehow be equated to the study of
Thomas Pynchon (the reason, as you recall, why you are subscribed here).
Since you were a vocal advocate for reading Nabokov, and since I trust you
are not a hypocrite, I do hope to soon see you fulfill what you claimed
reading N so important.
>
> Of course, I'm sure there's plenty of room on the Nabokov list for you as
a subscriber. You may wish to look into it, my good fellow.
>
> slothenvypride
>
> By the way, the spell-check command is a wonderful invention. You must
try it sometime (merely offered as friendly advice, of course).
>
>
> David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Doug, the one-note wonder with mant masks:
>
> > From: slothenvypride
> > Incidentally, and not to sound caustic or step on anyone's toes here,
>
> Who? You? Never!
>
> >but will anyone who is posting Pale Fire-related analysis and commentary
be
> equating any of it to Thomas Pynchon any time soon?
>
> Nobody here is answerable to you.
>
> David Morris
>
> __________________________________
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 14:09:01 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF -- Why care about Kinbote?
>
> I don't think we have to "like" a character to "care." I don't think
"care"
> means love, cherish, or be concerned for. It means more like "give a shit
> about", as in find compelling enough to want to follow closely instead of
> losing interest in. In this regard I find Kinbote affected and hiding
behind a
> facade, which may make sense in the scheme of things. His persona may be
> consistent, but it is not compelling (but he is a good storey teller as
far as
> they go). The contrast was made with Humbert, who was truly sincere in
his
> feelings, which he expressed quite convincingly.
>
> DM
>
> - --- MalignD@aol.com wrote:
> > I must say that I find the caption of this string depressing, the idea
that
> one needs characters that are likeable, that one can identify with, that
one
> can "care" about.
> >
> > Kinbote is pretty richly on the page: witty, appalling, narcissisitic,
> delusional, grandiose, a ping-pong enthusiast -- not enough for you?
> >
> > Not to pick unnecessarily on TP, but to offer an example to hand: did
you
> find yourselves "caring" about either of those two-dimensional effigies,
Mason
> or Dixon?
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------------
>>
>
>>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 17:21:27 EDT
> From: MalignD@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Gnostic Bible?
>
> - --part1_196.1d107539.2c3de157_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>
> In a message dated 7/9/03 5:19:16 PM, pynchonoid@yahoo.com writes:
>
>
> > a character in _Mason & Dixon_.
> >
>
>
>>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 14:24:52 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF -- Why care about Kinbote?
>
> >>> His persona may be consistent, but it is not compelling <<<
>
> Kinbote is hilarious.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 14:36:57 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - preliminary
>
> Alfred Appel: You once said that Robbe-Grillet's shifts of levels belong
to
> psychology---"psychology at its best." Are you a psychological novelist?
>
> Nabokov: All novelists of any worth are psychological novelists, I guess.
> [...]
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 14:39:04 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF -- Why care about Kinbote?
>
> - --- MalignD@aol.com wrote:
> > It's quite pointless to quibble over what one likes and what one or
another
> doesn't. I'll simply say that the qualities you seek in a novel (as I
> understand them) prevent your taking Pale Fire on its own terms.
>
> No, I fully plan on taking Pale Fire on its own terms. Its terms require
one
> to search it for a hidden story. My quibble was that the surface story
didn't
> hold much water all by itself. But evidently the hidden story can lead
one to
> become quite obsessed.
>
> DM
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 14:49:28 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF -- Why care about Kinbote?
>
> >>>No, I fully plan on taking Pale Fire on its own terms. Its terms
require
> one
> to search it for a hidden story.<<<
>
> Its terms also require laughter in the dark.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 15:47:48 -0700 (PDT)
> From: pynchonoid <pynchonoid@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Thomas Jefferson in M&D WAS Re: Gnostic Bible?
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 19:00:44 EDT
> From: Bandwraith@aol.com
> Subject: Re: VLVL/NPPF - on relating VN with TRP
>
> In a message dated 7/9/03 12:49:53 PM, Erik.Burns@dowjones.com writes:
>
> << Foax:
>
>
> Not to be overly Kinbotic about it, but >>
>
> I believe the term is "Kinbotean," unless you're purposively
> aiming for an echo with "robotic," which reminds me of chess
> somehow- many, but not an infinite number of variations-
> hence, able to be played successfully by machine.
>
> One difference, it occurs to me, between VL and PF is the
> differing demands made by each upon the reader in order
> to achieve "readerly nirvana"- which shall go undefined, but
> must be something like the "bliss beyond merely understanding."
>
> PF, in that regard, is seemingly much more demanding. One
> must agree to play the game according to a whole set of
> rules- much like chess. If played seriously (that is not to
> say the novel isn't funny), it can be dazzling- a mediocre
> poem and an unreliable narrator somehow sum to an
> over-arching masterpiece: two wrongs make a right. If not
> played vigorously, though, it can seem contrived. The
> "hypertext" structure serves to underline the need to
> adhere to the rules of the game. One can ignore them, of
> course, much the way children will often use chess pieces
> for army men, but the deeper beauty of the novel is lost.
>
> respectfully
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 16:38:01 -0700 (PDT)
> From: slothenvypride <slothenvypride7@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF -- Why I care about Kinbote!
>
> - --0-1375884223-1057793881=:57327
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> And please let's not forget how it tingles our spine! Oooooo, boy! Real
shivery!
>
> When I read Pale Fire, I get a slight but clear numbing through my
mid-back. It usually sprays in a shivery blast of excitement throughout my
entire back region, centering in part about my lower back and kidneys.
Meanwhile, I get a slight tickle in my ball sack.
>
> Keith, does this happen to you, too?
>
> I'd ask Morris, but has no balls to speak of.
>
> best
>
>
>
> s~Z <keithsz@concentric.net> wrote:
> >>>No, I fully plan on taking Pale Fire on its own terms. Its terms
require
> one
> to search it for a hidden story.<<<
>
> Its terms also require laughter in the dark.
>
>
> - ---------------------------------
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 17:11:52 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Dave Monroe <monrovius@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - preliminary
>
> Me, I just wait for the movie version. Perhaps a
> mistake in this case ...
>
> - --- The Great Quail <quail@libyrinth.com> wrote:
> >
> > Back in high school, I was assigned "The Luzhin
> > Defense" and it just blew me away -- set me on the
> > right path, so to speak....
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> =====
> <http://www.pynchonoid.org/>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3384
> ********************************
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to waste@waste.org
> with "unsubscribe pynchon-l-digest" in the message body.
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 18:48:48 +0100
> From: "Burns, Erik" <Erik.Burns@dowjones.com>
> Subject: VLVL/NPPF - on relating VN with TRP
>
> Foax:
>
> Not to be overly Kinbotic about it, but _Vineland_ is, of course, an
> extended gloss on _Pale Fire_. Anyone paying attention should have
> realized that immediately. It centers on a pivotal quote on page 366, Weed
> to Prairie:
>
> "Rex, why? He's only the ceremonial trigger finger, just a stooge, same
> as Frenesi. Used to think I was climbing step by step, right? toward a
> resolution -- first Rex, above him your mother, then Brock Vond, then
> - -- but that's when it begins to go dark, and that door at the top I
> thought I saw isn't there anymore, because the light behind it just
> went off too."
>
> Where are they? "...around Shade Creek..." (two grafs lower).
>
> .....a bigger, more respectable, competent Gradus?
>
> in jest, natch.
>
> etb
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:41:54 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Dave Monroe <monrovius@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Pale Fire/Borges Linked to P
>
> Jorge Luis Borges, ⌠Pierre Menard, autor del Quijote■,
> Ficciones (fragmento) ...
>
> http://www2.mt.tama.hosei.ac.jp/~yanataka/Borges.doc
>
> Jorge Luis Borges
> Pierre Menard, Author of Don Quixote
> To Silvina Ocampo
>
>
http://textz.gnutenberg.net/textz/borges_jorge_luis_pierre_menard_author_of_don_quixote.txt
>
> - --- cfalbert <calbert@hslboxmaster.com> wrote:
> >
> > Michael Wood identifies Borges' "Pierre Menard,
> > Author of the Quixote" as a model for PF.......
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 05:00:35 +1000
> From: jbor <jbor@bigpond.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Preliminary - Pale Fire
>
> on 9/7/03 4:05 PM, Mondegreen wrote:
>
> > Regarding Shade, the poet: Brian Boyd is emphatic that Shade's Pale Fire
is
> > major stuff.
>
> In what sense? The poetry is Nabokov's, after all, and Shade is a
fictional
> character, as you acknowledge. Shade's life experiences, which provide him
> with his poetic (and *emotional*) content, and his work habits, are also
> fictitious. So there's an aesthetic buffer in place to begin with. The
> alternation between metaphysical grandiosity and utter banality in the
poem
> strikes me as quite deliberately funny, but I have the feeling I'm
laughing
> at Shade rather than with him, and that he takes himself as a poet quite
as
> seriously as Kinbote does (eg. ll. 423-6). The very idea that a poet would
> write a "daily quota" of lines on the topic of, among others, his own
> daughter's suicide, is pretty appalling. Kinbote aside, there's an ironic
> distance -- quite an expansive one imo -- between Shade and Nabokov as
well.
>
> > Certainly Nabokov's Shade's Pale Fire is a masterpiece, but I
> > find the author behind the author to be winking or smiling through the
> > lines, some of which have an apparently unconsciously droll --even if
> > simultaneously tragic-- ring, or at least a parodic character; homely
lines
> > of a homely author. For example: a few lines after the extraordinarily
> > evocative line 57 "The phantom of my little daughter's swing," there is
> > "TV's huge paperclip"; line 76-78 "certain words...such as 'bad heart'
> > always to him refer, And 'cancer of the pancreas' to her" (true and
> > touching, but gulptious); and Nabokov's arch lines (beginning with 295)
> > that introduce the theme of Hazel's unattractiveness in the eyes of her
> > parents: "At first we'd smile and say: All little girls are plump'"
> > ..."'That's the awkward age.'" ..."....'Less starch, more fruit!'" ...
> > "...that nice frail roommate, now a nun" ..."almost fetching". These
sad,
> > laughable, impish lines, and John Shade's closeup focus on his
daughter's
> > physical defects, her "swollen feet" and "psoriatic fingernails," (355)
and
> > his readiness to share these minutae with the world, inform the reader
that
> > for Shade this unattractiveness is integrally and inevitably linked to
> > unhappiness, Hazel's and his own. Does he ever inquire or --like David
> > Morris-- wonder if Hazel's misery might derive from any cause or causes
> > other than her bodily appearance? "She'd criticize Ferociously our
> > projects" (352), but I don't think Shade ever took the hint.
>
> Yes, I don't think Shade ever recognises Hazel's sense of her parents'
> disappointment as one of the factors behind her depression and suicide.
>
> best
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 12:36:25 -0700 (PDT)
> From: pynchonoid <pynchonoid@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3383
>
> Because these things seem to take on a life of their
> own here on Pynchon-L: I not posting to the P-list
> under any name other than pynchonoid@yahoo.com.
>
> Pathetic but predictable to learn that
> fqmorrris@yahoo.com has tired of the Pale Fire reading
> already. I guess it got tired of the other group
> members reminding it to read the novel before making
> stupid claims.
>
> Watching fqmorrris@yahoo.com struggling to come to
> grips with this novel -- without having read it -- is
> the funniest thing I've seen all summer.
>
>
>
> >Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 05:19:05 -0700 (PDT)
> >From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> >Subject: Re: We dont really care about Kinbote ...
>
> >Doug, the one-note wonder with mant masks:
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 16:09:57 EDT
> From: MalignD@aol.com
> Subject: Re: NPPF -- Why care about Kinbote?
>
> - --part1_f5.2ee96082.2c3dd095_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> > <<Beauty plus Pity. That is as close as we get to a definition of Art.>>
> >
> Not so shameless as to let this stand as perhaps being understood as your
> own, are you?
>
>
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 16:40:37 EDT
> From: MalignD@aol.com
> Subject: Re: NPPF -- Why care about Kinbote?
>
> - --part1_1ab.178622b2.2c3dd7c5_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> I must say that I find the caption of this string depressing, the idea
that
> one needs characters that are likeable, that one can identify with, that
one
> can "care" about.
>
> Kinbote is pretty richly on the page: witty, appalling, narcissisitic,
> delusional, grandiose, a ping-pong enthusiast -- not enough for you?
>
> Not to pick unnecessarily on TP, but to offer an example to hand: did
you
> find yourselves "caring" about either of those two-dimensional effigies,
Mason
> or Dixon?
>
>>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 13:42:10 -0700 (PDT)
> From: slothenvypride <slothenvypride7@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: We dont really care about Kinbote ...
>
> - --0-35317573-1057783330=:44154
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Imagine my astonishment when Mr. Morris chose to respond to one of my
posts. Heretofore, I'd been under the impression that he has me "blocked"
from his inbox for fear of having to respond to my sundry inquiries.
>
> Regarding being answerable, Mr. Morris, you are merely answerable for your
own actions and words, and you, as well as many others, indicated last month
that this reading of Pale Fire would somehow be equated to the study of
Thomas Pynchon (the reason, as you recall, why you are subscribed here).
Since you were a vocal advocate for reading Nabokov, and since I trust you
are not a hypocrite, I do hope to soon see you fulfill what you claimed
reading N so important.
>
> Of course, I'm sure there's plenty of room on the Nabokov list for you as
a subscriber. You may wish to look into it, my good fellow.
>
> slothenvypride
>
> By the way, the spell-check command is a wonderful invention. You must
try it sometime (merely offered as friendly advice, of course).
>
>
> David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Doug, the one-note wonder with mant masks:
>
> > From: slothenvypride
> > Incidentally, and not to sound caustic or step on anyone's toes here,
>
> Who? You? Never!
>
> >but will anyone who is posting Pale Fire-related analysis and commentary
be
> equating any of it to Thomas Pynchon any time soon?
>
> Nobody here is answerable to you.
>
> David Morris
>
> __________________________________
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 14:09:01 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF -- Why care about Kinbote?
>
> I don't think we have to "like" a character to "care." I don't think
"care"
> means love, cherish, or be concerned for. It means more like "give a shit
> about", as in find compelling enough to want to follow closely instead of
> losing interest in. In this regard I find Kinbote affected and hiding
behind a
> facade, which may make sense in the scheme of things. His persona may be
> consistent, but it is not compelling (but he is a good storey teller as
far as
> they go). The contrast was made with Humbert, who was truly sincere in
his
> feelings, which he expressed quite convincingly.
>
> DM
>
> - --- MalignD@aol.com wrote:
> > I must say that I find the caption of this string depressing, the idea
that
> one needs characters that are likeable, that one can identify with, that
one
> can "care" about.
> >
> > Kinbote is pretty richly on the page: witty, appalling, narcissisitic,
> delusional, grandiose, a ping-pong enthusiast -- not enough for you?
> >
> > Not to pick unnecessarily on TP, but to offer an example to hand: did
you
> find yourselves "caring" about either of those two-dimensional effigies,
Mason
> or Dixon?
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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>
> ------------------------------
>>
>
>>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 17:21:27 EDT
> From: MalignD@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Gnostic Bible?
>
> - --part1_196.1d107539.2c3de157_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>
> In a message dated 7/9/03 5:19:16 PM, pynchonoid@yahoo.com writes:
>
>
> > a character in _Mason & Dixon_.
> >
>
>
>>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 14:24:52 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF -- Why care about Kinbote?
>
> >>> His persona may be consistent, but it is not compelling <<<
>
> Kinbote is hilarious.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 14:36:57 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - preliminary
>
> Alfred Appel: You once said that Robbe-Grillet's shifts of levels belong
to
> psychology---"psychology at its best." Are you a psychological novelist?
>
> Nabokov: All novelists of any worth are psychological novelists, I guess.
> [...]
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 14:39:04 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF -- Why care about Kinbote?
>
> - --- MalignD@aol.com wrote:
> > It's quite pointless to quibble over what one likes and what one or
another
> doesn't. I'll simply say that the qualities you seek in a novel (as I
> understand them) prevent your taking Pale Fire on its own terms.
>
> No, I fully plan on taking Pale Fire on its own terms. Its terms require
one
> to search it for a hidden story. My quibble was that the surface story
didn't
> hold much water all by itself. But evidently the hidden story can lead
one to
> become quite obsessed.
>
> DM
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 14:49:28 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF -- Why care about Kinbote?
>
> >>>No, I fully plan on taking Pale Fire on its own terms. Its terms
require
> one
> to search it for a hidden story.<<<
>
> Its terms also require laughter in the dark.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 15:47:48 -0700 (PDT)
> From: pynchonoid <pynchonoid@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Thomas Jefferson in M&D WAS Re: Gnostic Bible?
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 19:00:44 EDT
> From: Bandwraith@aol.com
> Subject: Re: VLVL/NPPF - on relating VN with TRP
>
> In a message dated 7/9/03 12:49:53 PM, Erik.Burns@dowjones.com writes:
>
> << Foax:
>
>
> Not to be overly Kinbotic about it, but >>
>
> I believe the term is "Kinbotean," unless you're purposively
> aiming for an echo with "robotic," which reminds me of chess
> somehow- many, but not an infinite number of variations-
> hence, able to be played successfully by machine.
>
> One difference, it occurs to me, between VL and PF is the
> differing demands made by each upon the reader in order
> to achieve "readerly nirvana"- which shall go undefined, but
> must be something like the "bliss beyond merely understanding."
>
> PF, in that regard, is seemingly much more demanding. One
> must agree to play the game according to a whole set of
> rules- much like chess. If played seriously (that is not to
> say the novel isn't funny), it can be dazzling- a mediocre
> poem and an unreliable narrator somehow sum to an
> over-arching masterpiece: two wrongs make a right. If not
> played vigorously, though, it can seem contrived. The
> "hypertext" structure serves to underline the need to
> adhere to the rules of the game. One can ignore them, of
> course, much the way children will often use chess pieces
> for army men, but the deeper beauty of the novel is lost.
>
> respectfully
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 16:38:01 -0700 (PDT)
> From: slothenvypride <slothenvypride7@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF -- Why I care about Kinbote!
>
> - --0-1375884223-1057793881=:57327
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> And please let's not forget how it tingles our spine! Oooooo, boy! Real
shivery!
>
> When I read Pale Fire, I get a slight but clear numbing through my
mid-back. It usually sprays in a shivery blast of excitement throughout my
entire back region, centering in part about my lower back and kidneys.
Meanwhile, I get a slight tickle in my ball sack.
>
> Keith, does this happen to you, too?
>
> I'd ask Morris, but has no balls to speak of.
>
> best
>
>
>
> s~Z <keithsz@concentric.net> wrote:
> >>>No, I fully plan on taking Pale Fire on its own terms. Its terms
require
> one
> to search it for a hidden story.<<<
>
> Its terms also require laughter in the dark.
>
>
> - ---------------------------------
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 17:11:52 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Dave Monroe <monrovius@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - preliminary
>
> Me, I just wait for the movie version. Perhaps a
> mistake in this case ...
>
> - --- The Great Quail <quail@libyrinth.com> wrote:
> >
> > Back in high school, I was assigned "The Luzhin
> > Defense" and it just blew me away -- set me on the
> > right path, so to speak....
>
>
> __________________________________
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>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> =====
> <http://www.pynchonoid.org/>
>
> __________________________________
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>
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3384
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