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Fw: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3448 PALE FIRE
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From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 11:25 PM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3448
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 14:11:52 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Incest Motif
>
> (34) indoor scene
> (40) indoor scene
> (46) fold or furrow to displace/the fragile vista
> (55) White butterflies turn lavender as they/Pass through its shade
> (62) The stiff vane so often visited/By the naive
> (63) mockingbird/Retelling all the programs she had heard;
> (66) come here,/Come here, come herrr'; flirting her tail aloft
> (69) Upward hop-flop (seizure imagery at line *69*)
> (86) I was brought up by dear bizarre Aunt Maud,
> (87) A poet and a painter with a taste
> (103) And how my childish palate loved the taste
> (101) but was I free?
> (106) The painted parchment papering our cage:(waxwing caged)
> (112) Reflects the rainbow of a thunderstorm (seizure image:
> aura/brainstorm)
> (113) Which in a distant valley has been staged (feigned remote vagina)
> (114) For we are most artistically caged (captive by artist, Maud)
> (147) That blackness was sublime.
> (149) one hand/Under the pebbles of a panting strand
> (153) There were dull throbs in my Triassic
> (155) An icy shiver down my Age of Stone
> (157) During one winter every afternoon (cf., winter's code)
> (161) But like some lad forced by a wench
> (162) With his pure tongue her abject thirst to quench,
> (163) I was corrupted, terrified allured,
> (166) The wonder lingers and the shame remains.
>
> Incest is the menace hidden, yet reflected, in the innocent imagery of a
> seizure.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:55:11 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Incest Motif
>
> > (34) indoor scene
> > (40) indoor scene
> > (46) fold or furrow to displace/the fragile vista
> > (55) White butterflies turn lavender as they/Pass through its shade
> > (62) The stiff vane so often visited/By the naive
> > (63) mockingbird/Retelling all the programs she had heard;
> > (66) come here,/Come here, come herrr'; flirting her tail aloft
> > (69) Upward hop-flop (seizure imagery at line *69*)
> > (86) I was brought up by dear bizarre Aunt Maud,
> > (87) A poet and a painter with a taste
> > (103) And how my childish palate loved the taste
> > (101) but was I free?
> > (106) The painted parchment papering our cage:(waxwing caged)
> > (112) Reflects the rainbow of a thunderstorm (seizure image:
> > aura/brainstorm)
> > (113) Which in a distant valley has been staged (feigned remote vagina)
> > (114) For we are most artistically caged (captive by artist, Maud)
> > (147) That blackness was sublime.
> > (149) one hand/Under the pebbles of a panting strand
> > (153) There were dull throbs in my Triassic
> > (155) An icy shiver down my Age of Stone
> > (157) During one winter every afternoon (cf., winter's code)
> > (161) But like some lad forced by a wench
> > (162) With his pure tongue her abject thirst to quench,
> > (163) I was corrupted, terrified allured,
> > (166) The wonder lingers and the shame remains.
> >
> > Incest is the menace hidden, yet reflected, in the innocent imagery of a
> > seizure.
> >
>
> While many of these instances might suggest sexual images out of context,
I
> guess I don't see how most of these can be equated with *incest* per se
> ((63) mockingbird/Retelling all the programs she had heard?????).
>
> Keith, it's an interesting reading of the poem. Can you tell us more,
> though? This "list" doesn't really argue the point, does it?
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 15:38:12 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Incest Motif
>
> >>>While many of these instances might suggest sexual images out of
context,
> I
> guess I don't see how most of these can be equated with *incest* per se
> ((63) mockingbird/Retelling all the programs she had heard?????).<<<
>
> What program do these mockingwords retell?
>
> "come here,/Come here, come herrr'; flirting her tail aloft"
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 15:43:20 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Incest Motif
>
> >>> This "list" doesn't really argue the point, does it? <<<
>
> I'm curious what you think Canto One is about. If it is misinterpreted and
> mishandled by Kinbote, what is a more accurate interpretation/handling in
> your opinion?
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:55:13 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: NPPF: Pale Fire-Based Hypertext
>
> http://www.inaeent.com/otio/otioi.htm
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:59:30 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: Pale Fire-Based Hypertext
>
> http://www.inaeent.com/otio/otiop.htm
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:15:11 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Incest Motif
>
> > What program do these mockingwords retell?
> >
> > "come here,/Come here, come herrr'; flirting her tail aloft"
> >
> >
>
> Oh. I see. Well ... how could I have been so blind to such an obvious
> reference to incest.
>
> Thanks for clarifying.
>
> Tim
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:26:31 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Incest Motif
>
> *I* never claimed to have a "reading" of what Canto One is "about," Keith.
> *You* did. And although the notion of incest is an intriguing one (and
> judging by what some of the N-listers have said over there, it's a fairly
> new idea to many of them, too), my previous post was simply in response to
> your list of quotations, taken out of context, to apparently support your
> "incest" reading.
>
> Quotations are cool, but please give them some context and relate them to
> something. Anyone can post a list of miscellaneous quotations from a book
> and claim they inherently "prove" some point. All I'm asking is that you
> reference these 20+ quotations with some sort of analysis, is all.
>
> Personally, I don't have a reading of what Canto One is "about" and never
> claimed to. Not yet, anyways. I have nothing to prove on this issue ...
> but you do.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> >
> > I'm curious what you think Canto One is about. If it is misinterpreted
and
> > mishandled by Kinbote, what is a more accurate interpretation/handling
in
> > your opinion?
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 17:41:54 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Wedgie
>
> >>>*I* never claimed to have a "reading" of what Canto One is "about,"
> Keith.
> *You* did.<<<
>
> Why all this pissiness? It is fine with me if you do not have, or wish not
> to share your reading of the Canto. I was just curious. Not many have
shared
> a reading of the Canto, so I was wondering what you, and others, do with
it.
> If you think I claim to know what the Canto is about, you are taking me
much
> more seriously than I take myself. I think I am doing a Kinbote to the
poem
> at this point.
>
> >>>Quotations are cool, but please give them some context and relate them
to
> something. Anyone can post a list of miscellaneous quotations from a book
> and claim they inherently "prove" some point. All I'm asking is that you
> reference these 20+ quotations with some sort of analysis, is all.<<<
>
> I am not interested in doing that kind of analysis at this point. Just
> tossing out tidbits to see how they resonate.
>
> >>> I have nothing to prove on this issue ... but you do. <<<
>
> Looks like my reflections yanked northward the waistband on those boxers.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 17:54:01 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Incest Motif
>
> > What program do these mockingwords retell?
> >
> > "come here,/Come here, come herrr'; flirting her tail aloft"
> >
> >
>
> >>>Oh. I see. Well ... how could I have been so blind to such an obvious
> reference to incest.<<<
>
> What is your reading of what the mockingbird is retelling?
>
> Why the shift from birdcalls to English?
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:58:29 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Wedgie
>
> > Why all this pissiness? It is fine with me if you do not have, or wish
not
> > to share your reading of the Canto. I was just curious.
>
> Not being prissy. But nice try on the flame bait, Keith.
>
> > Not many have shared
> > a reading of the Canto, so I was wondering what you, and others, do with
> it.
>
> Fair enough, Keith. I'd be interested in seeing as much, too.
>
> > If you think I claim to know what the Canto is about, you are taking me
> much
> > more seriously than I take myself.
>
> You're the one who has put forth a reading of what the canto is "about":
> incest. That's cool, but why does it sound like you're backpedaling now
by
> suggesting you haven't claimed to know what it's "about"?
>
> > I think I am doing a Kinbote to the poem at this point.
>
> Wha?
>
> >
> > I am not interested in doing that kind of analysis at this point. Just
> > tossing out tidbits to see how they resonate.
>
> I see.
>
> >
> > >>> I have nothing to prove on this issue ... but you do. <<<
> >
> > Looks like my reflections yanked northward the waistband on those
boxers.
> >
>
> Had you given any actual reflections in the post in question, Keith,
perhaps
> I'd have felt your yank. You gave nothing more than a grocery list of
> quotations from the poem, out of any context, sans analysis. But
apparently
> they were tidbits meant to resonate.
>
> Awaiting what your next analysis will do to my underwear, I remain,
>
> Tim
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:04:14 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Incest Motif
>
> Sarcasm aside, I really would like to understand what you are trying to
> demonstrate. But for me, at least, I'm not seeing what you are seeing in
> this passage. Please explain what you are trying to demonstrate with the
> quotation.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> > > What program do these mockingwords retell?
> > >
> > > "come here,/Come here, come herrr'; flirting her tail aloft"
> > >
> > >
> >
> > >>>Oh. I see. Well ... how could I have been so blind to such an
obvious
> > reference to incest.<<<
> >
> > What is your reading of what the mockingbird is retelling?
> >
> > Why the shift from birdcalls to English?
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:05:49 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Wedgie
>
> >>>Not being prissy. But nice try on the flame bait, Keith.<<<
>
> I have no interest in flaming you. I enjoy you quite a lot. You do not
think
> my offerings are substantial, and that's fine. They may not be. But, my
> style is my style, and I am not interested in filling in the blanks yet.
If
> you look at that list of quotes (and read Canto One) and see nothing that
> evokes incest imagery, that is all I need to know at this point. And if
you
> weren't being pissy (not 'prissy') by putting asterisks around I and you
and
> suggesting that I was saying you were making claims, my apologies. As we
all
> know, it's hard to interpret the attitude behind the letters on the
screen.
> Selah.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:17:22 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Wedgie
>
> >
> > You do not think
> > my offerings are substantial, and that's fine. They may not be. But, my
> > style is my style, and I am not interested in filling in the blanks yet.
>
> And I certainly never meant to cast aspersions on the general quality of
> your contributions, man. Apologies as well. I was merely asking for more
> regarding the list of quotes. You've since made it clear what your
> intentions were, and I think it's a fair approach to exploring the
> possibilities of your reading.
>
> At least you have a sense of what the canto might be about. Perhaps it'll
> help me form one now ...
>
> Peace and undergarments,
>
> Tim
>
>
> If
> > you look at that list of quotes (and read Canto One) and see nothing
that
> > evokes incest imagery, that is all I need to know at this point. And if
> you
> > weren't being pissy (not 'prissy') by putting asterisks around I and you
> and
> > suggesting that I was saying you were making claims, my apologies. As we
> all
> > know, it's hard to interpret the attitude behind the letters on the
> screen.
> > Selah.
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:32:40 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Wedgie
>
> >>>At least you have a sense of what the canto might be about. Perhaps
> it'll
> help me form one now ...<<<
>
> I'm just reading it without recourse to Nabokov criticism (and without
> Kinbote's influence) to see what gets evoked for me from the poem standing
> alone. Unfortunately I'll have to overlap the Kinbote influence a bit as I
> prepare for the first 20 pages of the Commentary. Until my study day at
UCSB
> in another week or so I'm going to fart around with the poem on its own. I
> could sit down and flesh out the incest angle, I suppose, but that would
> take more time than I have to give it at the moment.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 21:45:43 -0400
> From: "Scott Badger" <lupine@ncia.net>
> Subject: RE: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> Rob:
>
> > No free man needs a God; but was I free?
> > How fully I felt nature glued to me
> > And how my childish palate loved the taste
> > Half-fish, half-honey, of that golden paste!
> > (101-5)
> >
> > I must admit I wasn't convinced by Keith's ("shocking"!) incest with
Aunt
> > Maud theory, but there are questions about what in heck Shade's
> > referring to
> > with his description of the odd mixture of flavours here.
>
> Though clearly lacking the prurient spunk of Keith's shocking screen-play,
I
> read "golden paste" as simply the mixture of honey and the wax of the
> honeycomb, that Shade might have sampled, stickily, directly from a hive.
> Does unprocessed honey have a more "gamey" taste that might be likened to
> fish? Is there a bee-keeper in the house? "No free man needs a God; but
was
> I free? / How I felt nature glued to me" might then set free will against
> either instinct ("nature glued to me") or a controlling God (hive-mind).
The
> "childish palate" being less refined, or REASONed.
>
> Scott Badger
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 22:26:27 -0400
> From: joeallonby <vze422fs@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: Pale Fire-Based Hypertext
>
> on 7/27/03 7:59 PM, s~Z at keithsz@concentric.net wrote:
>
> > http://www.inaeent.com/otio/otiop.htm
>
> > A book open at the Index (Moon,
> >
> >
> > Monad, Motor, Moral), the electric guitar,
> >
> >
> > the wolf skull; and from the local Star
> >
> > A curio: Red Sox Beat Yanks 5-4
>
> If only. Must have been written last night.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:24:10 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> >>> "No free man needs a God; but was
> I free? / How I felt nature glued to me" might then set free will against
> either instinct ("nature glued to me") or a controlling God (hive-mind).
The
> "childish palate" being less refined, or REASONed. <<<
>
> While I didn't think of honeycomb (preferring: won't you be my honey), the
> idea of natural determinism vs. freedom came to mind. But the word 'taste'
> ends two lines, 16 lines apart, and the first refers to Maud. Then the
> concept of being caged follows. What is the picture book that papered the
> cage? Why a cage? How does this relate to the question of freedom
preceding?
> Since I'm seeing the seizure as a cover for sexual assault, the staged
> thunderstorm becomes the seizure, and the mother-of-pearl cloudlet is the
> dissociated reflection. (The windowpane reflection of the waxwing slain is
> his bedroom window with chair and bed. [cf., lines 11 + 145]) Being
> artistically caged becomes being ensnared by artist Maud. Then - why and
> where is he going at night, and why is someone happier when seeing the
> 'Milky Way' out taking a piss? What is he doing that is less happy? Then
> following are images of being different than the other boys, and being
> alone. All of this points to an imprisonment of a different quality than
> natural instinct or hive-mind, no?
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 27 Jul 2003 22:29:02 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: RE: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> On Sun, 2003-07-27 at 21:45, Scott Badger wrote:
> > Rob:
> >
> > > No free man needs a God; but was I free?
> > > How fully I felt nature glued to me
> > > And how my childish palate loved the taste
> > > Half-fish, half-honey, of that golden paste!
> > > (101-5)
> > >
> > > I must admit I wasn't convinced by Keith's ("shocking"!) incest with
Aunt
> > > Maud theory, but there are questions about what in heck Shade's
> > > referring to
> > > with his description of the odd mixture of flavours here.
> >
> > Though clearly lacking the prurient spunk of Keith's shocking
screen-play, I
> > read "golden paste" as simply the mixture of honey and the wax of the
> > honeycomb, that Shade might have sampled, stickily, directly from a
hive.
> > Does unprocessed honey have a more "gamey" taste that might be likened
to
> > fish? Is there a bee-keeper in the house?
>
>
> Yes, as a matter of fact, there (virtually) is . . .
>
>
>
>
> "No free man needs a God; but was
> > I free? / How I felt nature glued to me" might then set free will
against
> > either instinct ("nature glued to me") or a controlling God (hive-mind).
The
> > "childish palate" being less refined, or REASONed.
> >
> > Scott Badger
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 21:41:17 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: Epic Poetry ... poem/read dynamic
>
> >
> > The more I think about it, it has to be iambs and other stress forms
that
> > cause it. Syllabic verse like that found in Romance languages seems
> better
> > suited for rhyming. I don't have any Russian, so I can only wonder if
it
> > has the same awkwardness?
> >
>
>
> Good point, Jasper.
>
> I recall hearing somewhere (a college prof, maybe?) that iambics became
the
> primary rhythm of choice in English because their rhythm was most
naturally
> suited to the speech patterns of the English language, as opposed to
dactyls
> or anapests, etc.
>
> It's certainly interesting to revisit that notion with someone who has
> experience and fluency with other languages!
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 27 Jul 2003 22:45:50 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: Pale Fire-Based Hypertext
>
> On Sun, 2003-07-27 at 22:26, joeallonby wrote:
> > on 7/27/03 7:59 PM, s~Z at keithsz@concentric.net wrote:
> >
> > > http://www.inaeent.com/otio/otiop.htm
> >
> > > A book open at the Index (Moon,
> > >
> > >
> > > Monad, Motor, Moral), the electric guitar,
> > >
> > >
> > > the wolf skull; and from the local Star
> > >
> > > A curio: Red Sox Beat Yanks 5-4
> >
> > If only. Must have been written last night.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> On Chapman's Homer
>
> Unless there actually was a sox name Chapman we are led through Keats
> and Endymion to the Moon Goddess herself.
>
>
> P.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:47:26 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is
> smoother than oil: But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a two-edged
> sword. Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell. (Proverbs
> 5:3)
>
> And Samson said unto them, I will now put forth a riddle unto you: if ye
can
> certainly declare it me within the seven days of the feast, and find it
out,
> then I will give you thirty sheets and thirty change of garments: But if
ye
> cannot declare it me, then shall ye give me thirty sheets and thirty
change
> of garments. And they said unto him, Put forth thy riddle, that we may
hear
> it. And he said unto them, Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of
the
> strong came forth sweetness. And they could not in three days expound the
> riddle. (Judges 14:12-14)
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 23:04:47 -0400
> From: "Scott Badger" <lupine@ncia.net>
> Subject: RE: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> slitterZ:
> > While I didn't think of honeycomb (preferring: won't you be my honey),
the
> > idea of natural determinism vs. freedom came to mind. But the word
'taste'
> > ends two lines, 16 lines apart, and the first refers to Maud. Then the
> > concept of being caged follows. What is the picture book that papered
the
> > cage? Why a cage? How does this relate to the question of freedom
> > preceding?
> > Since I'm seeing the seizure as a cover for sexual assault, the staged
> > thunderstorm becomes the seizure, and the mother-of-pearl cloudlet is
the
> > dissociated reflection. (The windowpane reflection of the waxwing slain
is
> > his bedroom window with chair and bed. [cf., lines 11 + 145]) Being
> > artistically caged becomes being ensnared by artist Maud. Then - why and
> > where is he going at night, and why is someone happier when seeing the
> > 'Milky Way' out taking a piss? What is he doing that is less happy? Then
> > following are images of being different than the other boys, and being
> > alone. All of this points to an imprisonment of a different quality than
> > natural instinct or hive-mind, no?
>
> I am open to this. A twisted poem, then, where the "loftier" discussion,
> grounded in the vulgar and banal, is itself cover for an intensely
personal
> and emotionally immediate howl? I am most interested in where this will
take
> us.
>
> Scott Badger
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:05:10 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: Pale Fire-Based Hypertext
>
> >>>Unless there actually was a sox name Chapman we are led through Keats
> and Endymion to the Moon Goddess herself.<<<
>
> On Sunday May 2, 1937 Ben Chapman played for the Red Sox and they beat the
> Yankees 5-4. Can't find a box score or description and account of the
game.
>
> ------------------------------
>
>> Date: 27 Jul 2003 23:12:08 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: NPPF So what IS Canto One about????
>
> All Canto Ones are alike, in that they introduce to us the themes,
> characters, flora and fauna which will figure decisively in Cantos Two,
> Three and Four.
>
>
> P.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:12:24 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> >>> A twisted poem, <<<
>
> "my demented youth' (line167)
> "my twisted life" (line 179)
>
> But the honeycomb thing:
>
> "In this hive I'm/Locked up" (line 216-7)
>
> I may be in outer space with the incest thing, but I think it is a
valuable
> exercise to examine the poem, and interpret it on its own before
integrating
> the Commentary.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 27 Jul 2003 23:23:50 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: Pale Fire-Based Hypertext
>
> On Sun, 2003-07-27 at 23:05, s~Z wrote:
> > >>>Unless there actually was a sox name Chapman we are led through Keats
> > and Endymion to the Moon Goddess herself.<<<
> >
> > On Sunday May 2, 1937 Ben Chapman played for the Red Sox and they beat
the
> > Yankees 5-4. Can't find a box score or description and account of the
game.
> >
> >
> In 1937 it wouldn't have been a night game . . .
>
> Unless it was played under the light of the moon . . .
>
> Oh, another possibility for golden paste.
>
> Sounds to me like one of those herbal remedies that might have been
> tried on poor sickly John.
>
> P.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:43:30 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: Pale Fire-Based Hypertext
>
> >>>In 1937 it wouldn't have been a night game . . .<<<
>
> What difference does it make that it was indeed a day game?
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 02:26:28 -0400
> From: joeallonby <vze422fs@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: Pale Fire-Based Hypertext
>
> on 7/27/03 11:05 PM, s~Z at keithsz@concentric.net wrote:
>
> >>>> Unless there actually was a sox name Chapman we are led through Keats
> > and Endymion to the Moon Goddess herself.<<<
> >
> > On Sunday May 2, 1937 Ben Chapman played for the Red Sox and they beat
the
> > Yankees 5-4. Can't find a box score or description and account of the
game.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Ben Chapman played for two seasons with the Sox. Ironically, he spent most
> of his career with the MFY's. At the risk of being Monroesque, here are
his
> career stats.
>
>
<http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/bos/stats_historical/bos_individual
> _stats_player.jsp?playerID=112205>
>
> I'll try to dig up the actual game in question but....
>
> When Keith posted the link to N hypertext the Red Sox had in fact beaten
the
> MFYs by a score of 5-4 the previous evening. "Must have been written last
> night." At the time that I responded, they were losing to the Evil Empire
by
> a score of 2-0. Chapman's homer is as much ancient history as Homer
himself,
> and this evening it pales in comparison to the homers of Varitek and
Damon.
>
>
<http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/bos/team/bos_player_bio.jsp?club_c
> ontext=bos&playerid=123660>
>
>
<http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/bos/team/bos_player_bio.jsp?club_c
> ontext=bos&playerid=113028>
>
> I will defy Delillo and say that the greatest homer since the Greek Bard
was
> not Bobby Thompson's "Shot Heard Round the World" in Gotham glory, but
that
> of Carlton Fisk in an epic but ultimately tragic struggle.
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3448
> ********************************
>
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 11:25 PM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3448
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 14:11:52 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Incest Motif
>
> (34) indoor scene
> (40) indoor scene
> (46) fold or furrow to displace/the fragile vista
> (55) White butterflies turn lavender as they/Pass through its shade
> (62) The stiff vane so often visited/By the naive
> (63) mockingbird/Retelling all the programs she had heard;
> (66) come here,/Come here, come herrr'; flirting her tail aloft
> (69) Upward hop-flop (seizure imagery at line *69*)
> (86) I was brought up by dear bizarre Aunt Maud,
> (87) A poet and a painter with a taste
> (103) And how my childish palate loved the taste
> (101) but was I free?
> (106) The painted parchment papering our cage:(waxwing caged)
> (112) Reflects the rainbow of a thunderstorm (seizure image:
> aura/brainstorm)
> (113) Which in a distant valley has been staged (feigned remote vagina)
> (114) For we are most artistically caged (captive by artist, Maud)
> (147) That blackness was sublime.
> (149) one hand/Under the pebbles of a panting strand
> (153) There were dull throbs in my Triassic
> (155) An icy shiver down my Age of Stone
> (157) During one winter every afternoon (cf., winter's code)
> (161) But like some lad forced by a wench
> (162) With his pure tongue her abject thirst to quench,
> (163) I was corrupted, terrified allured,
> (166) The wonder lingers and the shame remains.
>
> Incest is the menace hidden, yet reflected, in the innocent imagery of a
> seizure.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:55:11 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Incest Motif
>
> > (34) indoor scene
> > (40) indoor scene
> > (46) fold or furrow to displace/the fragile vista
> > (55) White butterflies turn lavender as they/Pass through its shade
> > (62) The stiff vane so often visited/By the naive
> > (63) mockingbird/Retelling all the programs she had heard;
> > (66) come here,/Come here, come herrr'; flirting her tail aloft
> > (69) Upward hop-flop (seizure imagery at line *69*)
> > (86) I was brought up by dear bizarre Aunt Maud,
> > (87) A poet and a painter with a taste
> > (103) And how my childish palate loved the taste
> > (101) but was I free?
> > (106) The painted parchment papering our cage:(waxwing caged)
> > (112) Reflects the rainbow of a thunderstorm (seizure image:
> > aura/brainstorm)
> > (113) Which in a distant valley has been staged (feigned remote vagina)
> > (114) For we are most artistically caged (captive by artist, Maud)
> > (147) That blackness was sublime.
> > (149) one hand/Under the pebbles of a panting strand
> > (153) There were dull throbs in my Triassic
> > (155) An icy shiver down my Age of Stone
> > (157) During one winter every afternoon (cf., winter's code)
> > (161) But like some lad forced by a wench
> > (162) With his pure tongue her abject thirst to quench,
> > (163) I was corrupted, terrified allured,
> > (166) The wonder lingers and the shame remains.
> >
> > Incest is the menace hidden, yet reflected, in the innocent imagery of a
> > seizure.
> >
>
> While many of these instances might suggest sexual images out of context,
I
> guess I don't see how most of these can be equated with *incest* per se
> ((63) mockingbird/Retelling all the programs she had heard?????).
>
> Keith, it's an interesting reading of the poem. Can you tell us more,
> though? This "list" doesn't really argue the point, does it?
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 15:38:12 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Incest Motif
>
> >>>While many of these instances might suggest sexual images out of
context,
> I
> guess I don't see how most of these can be equated with *incest* per se
> ((63) mockingbird/Retelling all the programs she had heard?????).<<<
>
> What program do these mockingwords retell?
>
> "come here,/Come here, come herrr'; flirting her tail aloft"
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 15:43:20 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Incest Motif
>
> >>> This "list" doesn't really argue the point, does it? <<<
>
> I'm curious what you think Canto One is about. If it is misinterpreted and
> mishandled by Kinbote, what is a more accurate interpretation/handling in
> your opinion?
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:55:13 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: NPPF: Pale Fire-Based Hypertext
>
> http://www.inaeent.com/otio/otioi.htm
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:59:30 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: Pale Fire-Based Hypertext
>
> http://www.inaeent.com/otio/otiop.htm
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:15:11 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Incest Motif
>
> > What program do these mockingwords retell?
> >
> > "come here,/Come here, come herrr'; flirting her tail aloft"
> >
> >
>
> Oh. I see. Well ... how could I have been so blind to such an obvious
> reference to incest.
>
> Thanks for clarifying.
>
> Tim
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:26:31 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Incest Motif
>
> *I* never claimed to have a "reading" of what Canto One is "about," Keith.
> *You* did. And although the notion of incest is an intriguing one (and
> judging by what some of the N-listers have said over there, it's a fairly
> new idea to many of them, too), my previous post was simply in response to
> your list of quotations, taken out of context, to apparently support your
> "incest" reading.
>
> Quotations are cool, but please give them some context and relate them to
> something. Anyone can post a list of miscellaneous quotations from a book
> and claim they inherently "prove" some point. All I'm asking is that you
> reference these 20+ quotations with some sort of analysis, is all.
>
> Personally, I don't have a reading of what Canto One is "about" and never
> claimed to. Not yet, anyways. I have nothing to prove on this issue ...
> but you do.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> >
> > I'm curious what you think Canto One is about. If it is misinterpreted
and
> > mishandled by Kinbote, what is a more accurate interpretation/handling
in
> > your opinion?
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 17:41:54 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Wedgie
>
> >>>*I* never claimed to have a "reading" of what Canto One is "about,"
> Keith.
> *You* did.<<<
>
> Why all this pissiness? It is fine with me if you do not have, or wish not
> to share your reading of the Canto. I was just curious. Not many have
shared
> a reading of the Canto, so I was wondering what you, and others, do with
it.
> If you think I claim to know what the Canto is about, you are taking me
much
> more seriously than I take myself. I think I am doing a Kinbote to the
poem
> at this point.
>
> >>>Quotations are cool, but please give them some context and relate them
to
> something. Anyone can post a list of miscellaneous quotations from a book
> and claim they inherently "prove" some point. All I'm asking is that you
> reference these 20+ quotations with some sort of analysis, is all.<<<
>
> I am not interested in doing that kind of analysis at this point. Just
> tossing out tidbits to see how they resonate.
>
> >>> I have nothing to prove on this issue ... but you do. <<<
>
> Looks like my reflections yanked northward the waistband on those boxers.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 17:54:01 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Incest Motif
>
> > What program do these mockingwords retell?
> >
> > "come here,/Come here, come herrr'; flirting her tail aloft"
> >
> >
>
> >>>Oh. I see. Well ... how could I have been so blind to such an obvious
> reference to incest.<<<
>
> What is your reading of what the mockingbird is retelling?
>
> Why the shift from birdcalls to English?
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:58:29 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Wedgie
>
> > Why all this pissiness? It is fine with me if you do not have, or wish
not
> > to share your reading of the Canto. I was just curious.
>
> Not being prissy. But nice try on the flame bait, Keith.
>
> > Not many have shared
> > a reading of the Canto, so I was wondering what you, and others, do with
> it.
>
> Fair enough, Keith. I'd be interested in seeing as much, too.
>
> > If you think I claim to know what the Canto is about, you are taking me
> much
> > more seriously than I take myself.
>
> You're the one who has put forth a reading of what the canto is "about":
> incest. That's cool, but why does it sound like you're backpedaling now
by
> suggesting you haven't claimed to know what it's "about"?
>
> > I think I am doing a Kinbote to the poem at this point.
>
> Wha?
>
> >
> > I am not interested in doing that kind of analysis at this point. Just
> > tossing out tidbits to see how they resonate.
>
> I see.
>
> >
> > >>> I have nothing to prove on this issue ... but you do. <<<
> >
> > Looks like my reflections yanked northward the waistband on those
boxers.
> >
>
> Had you given any actual reflections in the post in question, Keith,
perhaps
> I'd have felt your yank. You gave nothing more than a grocery list of
> quotations from the poem, out of any context, sans analysis. But
apparently
> they were tidbits meant to resonate.
>
> Awaiting what your next analysis will do to my underwear, I remain,
>
> Tim
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:04:14 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Incest Motif
>
> Sarcasm aside, I really would like to understand what you are trying to
> demonstrate. But for me, at least, I'm not seeing what you are seeing in
> this passage. Please explain what you are trying to demonstrate with the
> quotation.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> > > What program do these mockingwords retell?
> > >
> > > "come here,/Come here, come herrr'; flirting her tail aloft"
> > >
> > >
> >
> > >>>Oh. I see. Well ... how could I have been so blind to such an
obvious
> > reference to incest.<<<
> >
> > What is your reading of what the mockingbird is retelling?
> >
> > Why the shift from birdcalls to English?
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:05:49 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Wedgie
>
> >>>Not being prissy. But nice try on the flame bait, Keith.<<<
>
> I have no interest in flaming you. I enjoy you quite a lot. You do not
think
> my offerings are substantial, and that's fine. They may not be. But, my
> style is my style, and I am not interested in filling in the blanks yet.
If
> you look at that list of quotes (and read Canto One) and see nothing that
> evokes incest imagery, that is all I need to know at this point. And if
you
> weren't being pissy (not 'prissy') by putting asterisks around I and you
and
> suggesting that I was saying you were making claims, my apologies. As we
all
> know, it's hard to interpret the attitude behind the letters on the
screen.
> Selah.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:17:22 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Wedgie
>
> >
> > You do not think
> > my offerings are substantial, and that's fine. They may not be. But, my
> > style is my style, and I am not interested in filling in the blanks yet.
>
> And I certainly never meant to cast aspersions on the general quality of
> your contributions, man. Apologies as well. I was merely asking for more
> regarding the list of quotes. You've since made it clear what your
> intentions were, and I think it's a fair approach to exploring the
> possibilities of your reading.
>
> At least you have a sense of what the canto might be about. Perhaps it'll
> help me form one now ...
>
> Peace and undergarments,
>
> Tim
>
>
> If
> > you look at that list of quotes (and read Canto One) and see nothing
that
> > evokes incest imagery, that is all I need to know at this point. And if
> you
> > weren't being pissy (not 'prissy') by putting asterisks around I and you
> and
> > suggesting that I was saying you were making claims, my apologies. As we
> all
> > know, it's hard to interpret the attitude behind the letters on the
> screen.
> > Selah.
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:32:40 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Wedgie
>
> >>>At least you have a sense of what the canto might be about. Perhaps
> it'll
> help me form one now ...<<<
>
> I'm just reading it without recourse to Nabokov criticism (and without
> Kinbote's influence) to see what gets evoked for me from the poem standing
> alone. Unfortunately I'll have to overlap the Kinbote influence a bit as I
> prepare for the first 20 pages of the Commentary. Until my study day at
UCSB
> in another week or so I'm going to fart around with the poem on its own. I
> could sit down and flesh out the incest angle, I suppose, but that would
> take more time than I have to give it at the moment.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 21:45:43 -0400
> From: "Scott Badger" <lupine@ncia.net>
> Subject: RE: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> Rob:
>
> > No free man needs a God; but was I free?
> > How fully I felt nature glued to me
> > And how my childish palate loved the taste
> > Half-fish, half-honey, of that golden paste!
> > (101-5)
> >
> > I must admit I wasn't convinced by Keith's ("shocking"!) incest with
Aunt
> > Maud theory, but there are questions about what in heck Shade's
> > referring to
> > with his description of the odd mixture of flavours here.
>
> Though clearly lacking the prurient spunk of Keith's shocking screen-play,
I
> read "golden paste" as simply the mixture of honey and the wax of the
> honeycomb, that Shade might have sampled, stickily, directly from a hive.
> Does unprocessed honey have a more "gamey" taste that might be likened to
> fish? Is there a bee-keeper in the house? "No free man needs a God; but
was
> I free? / How I felt nature glued to me" might then set free will against
> either instinct ("nature glued to me") or a controlling God (hive-mind).
The
> "childish palate" being less refined, or REASONed.
>
> Scott Badger
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 22:26:27 -0400
> From: joeallonby <vze422fs@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: Pale Fire-Based Hypertext
>
> on 7/27/03 7:59 PM, s~Z at keithsz@concentric.net wrote:
>
> > http://www.inaeent.com/otio/otiop.htm
>
> > A book open at the Index (Moon,
> >
> >
> > Monad, Motor, Moral), the electric guitar,
> >
> >
> > the wolf skull; and from the local Star
> >
> > A curio: Red Sox Beat Yanks 5-4
>
> If only. Must have been written last night.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:24:10 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> >>> "No free man needs a God; but was
> I free? / How I felt nature glued to me" might then set free will against
> either instinct ("nature glued to me") or a controlling God (hive-mind).
The
> "childish palate" being less refined, or REASONed. <<<
>
> While I didn't think of honeycomb (preferring: won't you be my honey), the
> idea of natural determinism vs. freedom came to mind. But the word 'taste'
> ends two lines, 16 lines apart, and the first refers to Maud. Then the
> concept of being caged follows. What is the picture book that papered the
> cage? Why a cage? How does this relate to the question of freedom
preceding?
> Since I'm seeing the seizure as a cover for sexual assault, the staged
> thunderstorm becomes the seizure, and the mother-of-pearl cloudlet is the
> dissociated reflection. (The windowpane reflection of the waxwing slain is
> his bedroom window with chair and bed. [cf., lines 11 + 145]) Being
> artistically caged becomes being ensnared by artist Maud. Then - why and
> where is he going at night, and why is someone happier when seeing the
> 'Milky Way' out taking a piss? What is he doing that is less happy? Then
> following are images of being different than the other boys, and being
> alone. All of this points to an imprisonment of a different quality than
> natural instinct or hive-mind, no?
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 27 Jul 2003 22:29:02 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: RE: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> On Sun, 2003-07-27 at 21:45, Scott Badger wrote:
> > Rob:
> >
> > > No free man needs a God; but was I free?
> > > How fully I felt nature glued to me
> > > And how my childish palate loved the taste
> > > Half-fish, half-honey, of that golden paste!
> > > (101-5)
> > >
> > > I must admit I wasn't convinced by Keith's ("shocking"!) incest with
Aunt
> > > Maud theory, but there are questions about what in heck Shade's
> > > referring to
> > > with his description of the odd mixture of flavours here.
> >
> > Though clearly lacking the prurient spunk of Keith's shocking
screen-play, I
> > read "golden paste" as simply the mixture of honey and the wax of the
> > honeycomb, that Shade might have sampled, stickily, directly from a
hive.
> > Does unprocessed honey have a more "gamey" taste that might be likened
to
> > fish? Is there a bee-keeper in the house?
>
>
> Yes, as a matter of fact, there (virtually) is . . .
>
>
>
>
> "No free man needs a God; but was
> > I free? / How I felt nature glued to me" might then set free will
against
> > either instinct ("nature glued to me") or a controlling God (hive-mind).
The
> > "childish palate" being less refined, or REASONed.
> >
> > Scott Badger
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 21:41:17 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: Epic Poetry ... poem/read dynamic
>
> >
> > The more I think about it, it has to be iambs and other stress forms
that
> > cause it. Syllabic verse like that found in Romance languages seems
> better
> > suited for rhyming. I don't have any Russian, so I can only wonder if
it
> > has the same awkwardness?
> >
>
>
> Good point, Jasper.
>
> I recall hearing somewhere (a college prof, maybe?) that iambics became
the
> primary rhythm of choice in English because their rhythm was most
naturally
> suited to the speech patterns of the English language, as opposed to
dactyls
> or anapests, etc.
>
> It's certainly interesting to revisit that notion with someone who has
> experience and fluency with other languages!
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 27 Jul 2003 22:45:50 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: Pale Fire-Based Hypertext
>
> On Sun, 2003-07-27 at 22:26, joeallonby wrote:
> > on 7/27/03 7:59 PM, s~Z at keithsz@concentric.net wrote:
> >
> > > http://www.inaeent.com/otio/otiop.htm
> >
> > > A book open at the Index (Moon,
> > >
> > >
> > > Monad, Motor, Moral), the electric guitar,
> > >
> > >
> > > the wolf skull; and from the local Star
> > >
> > > A curio: Red Sox Beat Yanks 5-4
> >
> > If only. Must have been written last night.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> On Chapman's Homer
>
> Unless there actually was a sox name Chapman we are led through Keats
> and Endymion to the Moon Goddess herself.
>
>
> P.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:47:26 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is
> smoother than oil: But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a two-edged
> sword. Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell. (Proverbs
> 5:3)
>
> And Samson said unto them, I will now put forth a riddle unto you: if ye
can
> certainly declare it me within the seven days of the feast, and find it
out,
> then I will give you thirty sheets and thirty change of garments: But if
ye
> cannot declare it me, then shall ye give me thirty sheets and thirty
change
> of garments. And they said unto him, Put forth thy riddle, that we may
hear
> it. And he said unto them, Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of
the
> strong came forth sweetness. And they could not in three days expound the
> riddle. (Judges 14:12-14)
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 23:04:47 -0400
> From: "Scott Badger" <lupine@ncia.net>
> Subject: RE: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> slitterZ:
> > While I didn't think of honeycomb (preferring: won't you be my honey),
the
> > idea of natural determinism vs. freedom came to mind. But the word
'taste'
> > ends two lines, 16 lines apart, and the first refers to Maud. Then the
> > concept of being caged follows. What is the picture book that papered
the
> > cage? Why a cage? How does this relate to the question of freedom
> > preceding?
> > Since I'm seeing the seizure as a cover for sexual assault, the staged
> > thunderstorm becomes the seizure, and the mother-of-pearl cloudlet is
the
> > dissociated reflection. (The windowpane reflection of the waxwing slain
is
> > his bedroom window with chair and bed. [cf., lines 11 + 145]) Being
> > artistically caged becomes being ensnared by artist Maud. Then - why and
> > where is he going at night, and why is someone happier when seeing the
> > 'Milky Way' out taking a piss? What is he doing that is less happy? Then
> > following are images of being different than the other boys, and being
> > alone. All of this points to an imprisonment of a different quality than
> > natural instinct or hive-mind, no?
>
> I am open to this. A twisted poem, then, where the "loftier" discussion,
> grounded in the vulgar and banal, is itself cover for an intensely
personal
> and emotionally immediate howl? I am most interested in where this will
take
> us.
>
> Scott Badger
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:05:10 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: Pale Fire-Based Hypertext
>
> >>>Unless there actually was a sox name Chapman we are led through Keats
> and Endymion to the Moon Goddess herself.<<<
>
> On Sunday May 2, 1937 Ben Chapman played for the Red Sox and they beat the
> Yankees 5-4. Can't find a box score or description and account of the
game.
>
> ------------------------------
>
>> Date: 27 Jul 2003 23:12:08 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: NPPF So what IS Canto One about????
>
> All Canto Ones are alike, in that they introduce to us the themes,
> characters, flora and fauna which will figure decisively in Cantos Two,
> Three and Four.
>
>
> P.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:12:24 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> >>> A twisted poem, <<<
>
> "my demented youth' (line167)
> "my twisted life" (line 179)
>
> But the honeycomb thing:
>
> "In this hive I'm/Locked up" (line 216-7)
>
> I may be in outer space with the incest thing, but I think it is a
valuable
> exercise to examine the poem, and interpret it on its own before
integrating
> the Commentary.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 27 Jul 2003 23:23:50 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: Pale Fire-Based Hypertext
>
> On Sun, 2003-07-27 at 23:05, s~Z wrote:
> > >>>Unless there actually was a sox name Chapman we are led through Keats
> > and Endymion to the Moon Goddess herself.<<<
> >
> > On Sunday May 2, 1937 Ben Chapman played for the Red Sox and they beat
the
> > Yankees 5-4. Can't find a box score or description and account of the
game.
> >
> >
> In 1937 it wouldn't have been a night game . . .
>
> Unless it was played under the light of the moon . . .
>
> Oh, another possibility for golden paste.
>
> Sounds to me like one of those herbal remedies that might have been
> tried on poor sickly John.
>
> P.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:43:30 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: Pale Fire-Based Hypertext
>
> >>>In 1937 it wouldn't have been a night game . . .<<<
>
> What difference does it make that it was indeed a day game?
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 02:26:28 -0400
> From: joeallonby <vze422fs@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: Pale Fire-Based Hypertext
>
> on 7/27/03 11:05 PM, s~Z at keithsz@concentric.net wrote:
>
> >>>> Unless there actually was a sox name Chapman we are led through Keats
> > and Endymion to the Moon Goddess herself.<<<
> >
> > On Sunday May 2, 1937 Ben Chapman played for the Red Sox and they beat
the
> > Yankees 5-4. Can't find a box score or description and account of the
game.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Ben Chapman played for two seasons with the Sox. Ironically, he spent most
> of his career with the MFY's. At the risk of being Monroesque, here are
his
> career stats.
>
>
<http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/bos/stats_historical/bos_individual
> _stats_player.jsp?playerID=112205>
>
> I'll try to dig up the actual game in question but....
>
> When Keith posted the link to N hypertext the Red Sox had in fact beaten
the
> MFYs by a score of 5-4 the previous evening. "Must have been written last
> night." At the time that I responded, they were losing to the Evil Empire
by
> a score of 2-0. Chapman's homer is as much ancient history as Homer
himself,
> and this evening it pales in comparison to the homers of Varitek and
Damon.
>
>
<http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/bos/team/bos_player_bio.jsp?club_c
> ontext=bos&playerid=123660>
>
>
<http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/bos/team/bos_player_bio.jsp?club_c
> ontext=bos&playerid=113028>
>
> I will defy Delillo and say that the greatest homer since the Greek Bard
was
> not Bobby Thompson's "Shot Heard Round the World" in Gotham glory, but
that
> of Carlton Fisk in an epic but ultimately tragic struggle.
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3448
> ********************************
>