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Fw: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3508 Pale Fire Commentary
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----- Original Message -----
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 12:00 AM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3508
>
> pynchon-l-digest Wednesday, August 27 2003 Volume 02 : Number
3508
>
>
> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:23:25 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Notes C.1-4 - C.42
>
> >>>Canto One opens with a reflection on the poet's childhood. <<<
>
> Canto One opens with the reflection that he is a reflection of a bird that
> was killed by crashing into a reflection.
>
> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:26:57 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Notes C.1-4 - C.42
>
> >>>Canto One opens with the reflection that he is a reflection of a bird
> that
> was killed by crashing into a reflection.<<<
>
> Canto One opens with the reflection that Shade is the reflection of a bird
> which was killed by crashing into a reflection in which he (Shade)
continued
> living.
>
>> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:55:41 -0400
> From: "Don Corathers" <gumbo@fuse.net>
> Subject: NPPF Comm4: Metadiscussion, anybody?
>
> Decided to go ahead and post this now, because it includes (just a little
> way down) a structural question we might want to kick around a little bit.
>
>
> Line 71: parents (p 100)
>
> We learn a little more about Shade's parents: that his father Samuel, vice
> president of a surgical instruments company and ornithologist, died in
1902,
> when Shade was four. That his mother Caroline was a skilled artist who did
> the drawings for Samuel's book about Mexican birds. Kinbote doesn't report
> when Shade's mother died.
>
> " 'a bird had been named for him: Bombycilla Shadei' (that should be
> 'shadei,' of course)." Bombycilla is the genus name for the waxwing. The
> common North American waxwing is Bombycilla garrulus. The cedar waxwing,
> Bombycilla cedorum, is a close relative. The one that hit the window was
> Bombycilla shadei.
>
> ".Lukin comes from Luke, as also do Locock and Luxon and Lukashevich. It
> represents one of the many instances when the amorphous-looking but live
and
> personal hereditary patronymic grows, sometimes in fantastic shapes,
around
> the common pebble of a Christian name." As Botkin, cited as an example
> (rather out of context) two sentences later, might become Kinbote.
>
> ".used to call any old tumble-down building 'a hurley-house.'" Nice one,
> Charlie.
>
> And then abruptly we're in Zembla, meeting the king's parents. And here we
> approach a kind of turn in this discussion.
>
> Let me suggest some assumptions. I think we can assume that everybody who
is
> following this discussion seriously has read the book at least once. Thus
we
> 're all aware that Charles Kinbote believes himself to be the deposed King
> of Zembla, and that Kinbote is profoundly delusional. And that while
Zembla
> may or may not really exist in the fictional world of the novel, Kinbote
is
> probably not the king, and may not even be Kinbote. Gradus is probably not
> Gradus, but a local boy named Jack Grey who was trying to shoot the judge
> who committed him to an institution.
>
> Beyond that there are many discoveries yet to be made.
>
> Those of us who have read Boyd's *Nabokov's Pale Fire* know that the
section
> we're talking about now is central to an analysis that opens up the novel
> like a dark Vanessa spreading its wings. This raises a question that goes
> back to the spoilage discussions we had before the reading began, in a
> somewhat different way, and to David Morris's post suggesting that the
> reading is in the doldrums because everybody's sitting around waiting for
> the synthesis to begin. I realize now that this circumstance was what what
> Terrence must have had in mind when he said, early on, that our schedule
was
> fucked.
>
> If the point of this discussion, which is I think essentially
recreational,
> is to share the pleasures of unlocking a difficult work of art together,
it
> seems to me it is much too early in the game to begin posting big slabs of
> received wisdom. But I'm not sure just how we should proceed.
>
> I'd appreciate hearing what the group thinks.
>
> Don
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:46:29 +1000
> From: jbor <jbor@bigpond.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Notes C.1-4 - C.42
>
> >>>> "TSOTWS" being metaphorical, but not necesarily the event in his
> > bedroom, and
> > not a literal event. <<<
>
> on 27/8/03 7:15 AM, s~Z wrote:
>
> > Don't you have to understand the literal meaning of the words to
understand
> > the other thing they are pointing to? Surely there is a reason the
literal
> > event is placed in a canto which locates the event in his childhood in
his
> > bedroom.
> >
>
> There's a consciousness of the present time of writing the poem throughout
> Canto 1, however, and it's made quite explicit, eg. "whilst now ... I
look"
> (43-4), and "[i]t is now stout and rough; it has done well" (54),
describing
> the shagbark tree. There are oblique hints of a process of the poet
> imaginatively threading his way back through time in the second stanza
too:
> "Retake that falling snow" (13), and that "winter code" of the pheasant's
> footsteps "pointing back" (23 & 24).
>
> But I tend to agree that the verb tense of the first couple of stanzas
> indicates that Shade is standing in his childhood bedroom, a room "now
> reserved for guests" (80), reflecting back on his life from birth. So I
> guess another possibility is that it's the death of his parents, both of
> them "ornithologists" (71), which equates to the moment he became "the
> shadow of the waxwing slain" -- this rather than, it is perhaps implied,
the
> healthy waxwing he had been before their deaths, blithely flying through a
> happy and normal childhood.
>
> But Hazel's death still seems to me as to me to be the climax of the poem
> overall, and the turning point in Shade's life that the opening conceit
> *should* have related to.
>
> best
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:43:43 -0400
> From: "Don Corathers" <gumbo@fuse.net>
> Subject: NPPF: Should have been Comm2: Metadiscussion, anybody?
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don Corathers" <gumbo@fuse.net>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 10:55 PM
> Subject: NPPF Comm4: Metadiscussion, anybody?
>
>
> > Decided to go ahead and post this now, because it includes (just a
little
> > way down) a structural question we might want to kick around a little
bit.
> >
> >
> > Line 71: parents (p 100)
> >
> > We learn a little more about Shade's parents: that his father Samuel,
vice
> > president of a surgical instruments company and ornithologist, died in
> 1902,
> > when Shade was four. That his mother Caroline was a skilled artist who
did
> > the drawings for Samuel's book about Mexican birds. Kinbote doesn't
report
> > when Shade's mother died.
> >
> > " 'a bird had been named for him: Bombycilla Shadei' (that should be
> > 'shadei,' of course)." Bombycilla is the genus name for the waxwing. The
> > common North American waxwing is Bombycilla garrulus. The cedar waxwing,
> > Bombycilla cedorum, is a close relative. The one that hit the window was
> > Bombycilla shadei.
> >
> > ".Lukin comes from Luke, as also do Locock and Luxon and Lukashevich. It
> > represents one of the many instances when the amorphous-looking but live
> and
> > personal hereditary patronymic grows, sometimes in fantastic shapes,
> around
> > the common pebble of a Christian name." As Botkin, cited as an example
> > (rather out of context) two sentences later, might become Kinbote.
> >
> > ".used to call any old tumble-down building 'a hurley-house.'" Nice one,
> > Charlie.
> >
> > And then abruptly we're in Zembla, meeting the king's parents. And here
we
> > approach a kind of turn in this discussion.
> >
> > Let me suggest some assumptions. I think we can assume that everybody
who
> is
> > following this discussion seriously has read the book at least once.
Thus
> we
> > 're all aware that Charles Kinbote believes himself to be the deposed
King
> > of Zembla, and that Kinbote is profoundly delusional. And that while
> Zembla
> > may or may not really exist in the fictional world of the novel, Kinbote
> is
> > probably not the king, and may not even be Kinbote. Gradus is probably
not
> > Gradus, but a local boy named Jack Grey who was trying to shoot the
judge
> > who committed him to an institution.
> >
> > Beyond that there are many discoveries yet to be made.
> >
> > Those of us who have read Boyd's *Nabokov's Pale Fire* know that the
> section
> > we're talking about now is central to an analysis that opens up the
novel
> > like a dark Vanessa spreading its wings. This raises a question that
goes
> > back to the spoilage discussions we had before the reading began, in a
> > somewhat different way, and to David Morris's post suggesting that the
> > reading is in the doldrums because everybody's sitting around waiting
for
> > the synthesis to begin. I realize now that this circumstance was what
what
> > Terrence must have had in mind when he said, early on, that our schedule
> was
> > fucked.
> >
> > If the point of this discussion, which is I think essentially
> recreational,
> > is to share the pleasures of unlocking a difficult work of art together,
> it
> > seems to me it is much too early in the game to begin posting big slabs
of
> > received wisdom. But I'm not sure just how we should proceed.
> >
> > I'd appreciate hearing what the group thinks.
> >
> > Don
> >
> >
> >
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3508
> ********************************
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to waste@waste.org
> with "unsubscribe pynchon-l-digest" in the message body.
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 12:00 AM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3508
>
> pynchon-l-digest Wednesday, August 27 2003 Volume 02 : Number
3508
>
>
> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:23:25 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Notes C.1-4 - C.42
>
> >>>Canto One opens with a reflection on the poet's childhood. <<<
>
> Canto One opens with the reflection that he is a reflection of a bird that
> was killed by crashing into a reflection.
>
> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:26:57 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Notes C.1-4 - C.42
>
> >>>Canto One opens with the reflection that he is a reflection of a bird
> that
> was killed by crashing into a reflection.<<<
>
> Canto One opens with the reflection that Shade is the reflection of a bird
> which was killed by crashing into a reflection in which he (Shade)
continued
> living.
>
>> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:55:41 -0400
> From: "Don Corathers" <gumbo@fuse.net>
> Subject: NPPF Comm4: Metadiscussion, anybody?
>
> Decided to go ahead and post this now, because it includes (just a little
> way down) a structural question we might want to kick around a little bit.
>
>
> Line 71: parents (p 100)
>
> We learn a little more about Shade's parents: that his father Samuel, vice
> president of a surgical instruments company and ornithologist, died in
1902,
> when Shade was four. That his mother Caroline was a skilled artist who did
> the drawings for Samuel's book about Mexican birds. Kinbote doesn't report
> when Shade's mother died.
>
> " 'a bird had been named for him: Bombycilla Shadei' (that should be
> 'shadei,' of course)." Bombycilla is the genus name for the waxwing. The
> common North American waxwing is Bombycilla garrulus. The cedar waxwing,
> Bombycilla cedorum, is a close relative. The one that hit the window was
> Bombycilla shadei.
>
> ".Lukin comes from Luke, as also do Locock and Luxon and Lukashevich. It
> represents one of the many instances when the amorphous-looking but live
and
> personal hereditary patronymic grows, sometimes in fantastic shapes,
around
> the common pebble of a Christian name." As Botkin, cited as an example
> (rather out of context) two sentences later, might become Kinbote.
>
> ".used to call any old tumble-down building 'a hurley-house.'" Nice one,
> Charlie.
>
> And then abruptly we're in Zembla, meeting the king's parents. And here we
> approach a kind of turn in this discussion.
>
> Let me suggest some assumptions. I think we can assume that everybody who
is
> following this discussion seriously has read the book at least once. Thus
we
> 're all aware that Charles Kinbote believes himself to be the deposed King
> of Zembla, and that Kinbote is profoundly delusional. And that while
Zembla
> may or may not really exist in the fictional world of the novel, Kinbote
is
> probably not the king, and may not even be Kinbote. Gradus is probably not
> Gradus, but a local boy named Jack Grey who was trying to shoot the judge
> who committed him to an institution.
>
> Beyond that there are many discoveries yet to be made.
>
> Those of us who have read Boyd's *Nabokov's Pale Fire* know that the
section
> we're talking about now is central to an analysis that opens up the novel
> like a dark Vanessa spreading its wings. This raises a question that goes
> back to the spoilage discussions we had before the reading began, in a
> somewhat different way, and to David Morris's post suggesting that the
> reading is in the doldrums because everybody's sitting around waiting for
> the synthesis to begin. I realize now that this circumstance was what what
> Terrence must have had in mind when he said, early on, that our schedule
was
> fucked.
>
> If the point of this discussion, which is I think essentially
recreational,
> is to share the pleasures of unlocking a difficult work of art together,
it
> seems to me it is much too early in the game to begin posting big slabs of
> received wisdom. But I'm not sure just how we should proceed.
>
> I'd appreciate hearing what the group thinks.
>
> Don
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:46:29 +1000
> From: jbor <jbor@bigpond.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Notes C.1-4 - C.42
>
> >>>> "TSOTWS" being metaphorical, but not necesarily the event in his
> > bedroom, and
> > not a literal event. <<<
>
> on 27/8/03 7:15 AM, s~Z wrote:
>
> > Don't you have to understand the literal meaning of the words to
understand
> > the other thing they are pointing to? Surely there is a reason the
literal
> > event is placed in a canto which locates the event in his childhood in
his
> > bedroom.
> >
>
> There's a consciousness of the present time of writing the poem throughout
> Canto 1, however, and it's made quite explicit, eg. "whilst now ... I
look"
> (43-4), and "[i]t is now stout and rough; it has done well" (54),
describing
> the shagbark tree. There are oblique hints of a process of the poet
> imaginatively threading his way back through time in the second stanza
too:
> "Retake that falling snow" (13), and that "winter code" of the pheasant's
> footsteps "pointing back" (23 & 24).
>
> But I tend to agree that the verb tense of the first couple of stanzas
> indicates that Shade is standing in his childhood bedroom, a room "now
> reserved for guests" (80), reflecting back on his life from birth. So I
> guess another possibility is that it's the death of his parents, both of
> them "ornithologists" (71), which equates to the moment he became "the
> shadow of the waxwing slain" -- this rather than, it is perhaps implied,
the
> healthy waxwing he had been before their deaths, blithely flying through a
> happy and normal childhood.
>
> But Hazel's death still seems to me as to me to be the climax of the poem
> overall, and the turning point in Shade's life that the opening conceit
> *should* have related to.
>
> best
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:43:43 -0400
> From: "Don Corathers" <gumbo@fuse.net>
> Subject: NPPF: Should have been Comm2: Metadiscussion, anybody?
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don Corathers" <gumbo@fuse.net>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 10:55 PM
> Subject: NPPF Comm4: Metadiscussion, anybody?
>
>
> > Decided to go ahead and post this now, because it includes (just a
little
> > way down) a structural question we might want to kick around a little
bit.
> >
> >
> > Line 71: parents (p 100)
> >
> > We learn a little more about Shade's parents: that his father Samuel,
vice
> > president of a surgical instruments company and ornithologist, died in
> 1902,
> > when Shade was four. That his mother Caroline was a skilled artist who
did
> > the drawings for Samuel's book about Mexican birds. Kinbote doesn't
report
> > when Shade's mother died.
> >
> > " 'a bird had been named for him: Bombycilla Shadei' (that should be
> > 'shadei,' of course)." Bombycilla is the genus name for the waxwing. The
> > common North American waxwing is Bombycilla garrulus. The cedar waxwing,
> > Bombycilla cedorum, is a close relative. The one that hit the window was
> > Bombycilla shadei.
> >
> > ".Lukin comes from Luke, as also do Locock and Luxon and Lukashevich. It
> > represents one of the many instances when the amorphous-looking but live
> and
> > personal hereditary patronymic grows, sometimes in fantastic shapes,
> around
> > the common pebble of a Christian name." As Botkin, cited as an example
> > (rather out of context) two sentences later, might become Kinbote.
> >
> > ".used to call any old tumble-down building 'a hurley-house.'" Nice one,
> > Charlie.
> >
> > And then abruptly we're in Zembla, meeting the king's parents. And here
we
> > approach a kind of turn in this discussion.
> >
> > Let me suggest some assumptions. I think we can assume that everybody
who
> is
> > following this discussion seriously has read the book at least once.
Thus
> we
> > 're all aware that Charles Kinbote believes himself to be the deposed
King
> > of Zembla, and that Kinbote is profoundly delusional. And that while
> Zembla
> > may or may not really exist in the fictional world of the novel, Kinbote
> is
> > probably not the king, and may not even be Kinbote. Gradus is probably
not
> > Gradus, but a local boy named Jack Grey who was trying to shoot the
judge
> > who committed him to an institution.
> >
> > Beyond that there are many discoveries yet to be made.
> >
> > Those of us who have read Boyd's *Nabokov's Pale Fire* know that the
> section
> > we're talking about now is central to an analysis that opens up the
novel
> > like a dark Vanessa spreading its wings. This raises a question that
goes
> > back to the spoilage discussions we had before the reading began, in a
> > somewhat different way, and to David Morris's post suggesting that the
> > reading is in the doldrums because everybody's sitting around waiting
for
> > the synthesis to begin. I realize now that this circumstance was what
what
> > Terrence must have had in mind when he said, early on, that our schedule
> was
> > fucked.
> >
> > If the point of this discussion, which is I think essentially
> recreational,
> > is to share the pleasures of unlocking a difficult work of art together,
> it
> > seems to me it is much too early in the game to begin posting big slabs
of
> > received wisdom. But I'm not sure just how we should proceed.
> >
> > I'd appreciate hearing what the group thinks.
> >
> > Don
> >
> >
> >
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3508
> ********************************
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to waste@waste.org
> with "unsubscribe pynchon-l-digest" in the message body.