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Fw: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3575
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----- Original Message -----
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 6:35 PM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3575
>
>
>>
> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:47:58 -0400
> From: "charles albert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPR Line 143 a clockwork toy
>
> As I recall Ulysses is manifested as body with a flame for a head in the
> world of shades..........I thought it was in the Inferno, but can't seem
to
> find it now...
>
>
> love,
> cfa
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Joseph" <mjoseph@rci.rutgers.edu>
> To: "Glenn Scheper" <glenn_scheper@earthlink.net>
> Cc: "'Pynchon-L'" <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 11:40 AM
> Subject: RE: NPPR Line 143 a clockwork toy
>
>
> > On Fri, 26 Sep 2003, Glenn Scheper wrote:
> >
> > > Please, How is a candle(stick) related to broken time symbolism?
> > >
> > thanks for illuminating help on candlestick. Also trad symbol of one's
> > life in time (burning one's candle at both ends = hastening the end of
> > one's life); life like a flame on a candle (nursery rhyme, for example,
> > "here comes a candle to light you to bed/Here comes a chopper to chop
off
> > your head;" perhaps Jack jumping over the candlestick is another image
of
> > the atemporal, the flame jumping off the wick, as, for example, at the
end
> > of Katzenzakis's ODYSSEY: A MODERN SEQUEL; and famous line from Othello
> > "put out the light and then put out the light" or, alternately, "put out
> > the light and then put out her light"); yahrzeit candles, and other
> > memorial candles, symbolize time beyond time or atemporal time, in illo
> > tempore.
> >
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> >
> > > > Shade and Kinbote's sojourn constitutes an escape from time:
> > > > the candle, handless clock, broken clockwork toy, are all broken
> > > > symbols of time, or symbols of broken or stopped time.
> > >
> > > C. line 143 says candle-stick, a hyphen at line end in my copy.
> > >
> > > Solving candlestick is half the key of a mystery in Revelation:
> > >
> > > 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which
> > > are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
> > >
> > > 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right
> > > hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are
> > > the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks
> > > which thou sawest are the seven churches.
> > >
> > > Is a candlestick the candle itself or the candle's receptacle?
> > > Websters: Candlestick: a cupped or spiked holder for a candle.
> > >
> > > Funny, I opened my oldest reference, Harper's Bible Dictionary,
> > > wherein the entry Candlestick said, See Lampstand. These past
> > > 20 years I've been trying to see the symbolic importance of a
> > > thing that supports an oil lamp, which in my mental image had
> > > deteriorated by now to approximately a bedside night-stand.
> > >
> > > But now I find the Candlestick of Rev. is Greek LYCHNOS, which
> > > I can now properly map to Lamp, which discussion indicates no
> > > candle at all, but for that age, a vessel with oil and a wick.
> > >
> > > Which might VN mean by candlestick?
> > >
> > > From my AF perspective, Aladdin's lamp is Aladdin himself.
> > > The djinn comes out of a bottle which is himself. Rather,
> > > he is intertwined with the bottle, like the vase my wife
> > > bought, that has a serpent passing through cracks in it.
> > > Depending what end's what, putting a lamp under a bushel
> > > resembles coitus, but the lamp on a lampstand his mouth.
> > >
> > > Yours truly,
> > > Glenn Scheper
> > > http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_scheper/
> > > glenn_scheper + at + earthlink.net
> > > Copyleft(!) Forward freely.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 09:10:12 -0700
> From: "sZ" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Swing Your Partner
>
> Someone else fell into the T-rap.
>
> I wonder if the inside of T's cheek ever gets raw and sore?
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:30:15 -0700
> From: Mary Krimmel <mary@krimmel.net>
> Subject: NPPR Line 143 a clockwork toy
>
> At 11:40 AM 9/27/03 -0400, you [Michael Joseph] wrote:
>
> ....Also trad symbol of one's life in time (burning one's candle at both
> ends = hastening the end of
> >one's life); life like a flame on a candle (nursery rhyme, for example,
> >"here comes a candle to light you to bed/Here comes a chopper to chop off
> >your head;" perhaps Jack jumping over the candlestick is another image
of
> >the atemporal, the flame jumping off the wick, as, for example, at the
end
> >of Katzenzakis's ODYSSEY: A MODERN SEQUEL; and famous line from Othello
> >"put out the light and then put out the light" or, alternately, "put out
> >the light and then put out her light");...
>
> And the famous half-line from Macbeth "Out, out, brief candle!".
>
> Thanks to Glenn Scheper for the Lychnos of Revelation. But Kinbote saw a
> candlestick, not a candle. There is no reason to suppose that Kinbote
meant
> "candle". Nor is there reason to suppose that VN meant "candle", although
> he may have (probably did) intend the word to suggest a candle, a light
> gone out, etc.
>
> ------------------------------
>>
> ------------------------------
>> ********************************
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to waste@waste.org
> with "unsubscribe pynchon-l-digest" in the message body.
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 6:35 PM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3575
>
>
>>
> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:47:58 -0400
> From: "charles albert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPR Line 143 a clockwork toy
>
> As I recall Ulysses is manifested as body with a flame for a head in the
> world of shades..........I thought it was in the Inferno, but can't seem
to
> find it now...
>
>
> love,
> cfa
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Joseph" <mjoseph@rci.rutgers.edu>
> To: "Glenn Scheper" <glenn_scheper@earthlink.net>
> Cc: "'Pynchon-L'" <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 11:40 AM
> Subject: RE: NPPR Line 143 a clockwork toy
>
>
> > On Fri, 26 Sep 2003, Glenn Scheper wrote:
> >
> > > Please, How is a candle(stick) related to broken time symbolism?
> > >
> > thanks for illuminating help on candlestick. Also trad symbol of one's
> > life in time (burning one's candle at both ends = hastening the end of
> > one's life); life like a flame on a candle (nursery rhyme, for example,
> > "here comes a candle to light you to bed/Here comes a chopper to chop
off
> > your head;" perhaps Jack jumping over the candlestick is another image
of
> > the atemporal, the flame jumping off the wick, as, for example, at the
end
> > of Katzenzakis's ODYSSEY: A MODERN SEQUEL; and famous line from Othello
> > "put out the light and then put out the light" or, alternately, "put out
> > the light and then put out her light"); yahrzeit candles, and other
> > memorial candles, symbolize time beyond time or atemporal time, in illo
> > tempore.
> >
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> >
> > > > Shade and Kinbote's sojourn constitutes an escape from time:
> > > > the candle, handless clock, broken clockwork toy, are all broken
> > > > symbols of time, or symbols of broken or stopped time.
> > >
> > > C. line 143 says candle-stick, a hyphen at line end in my copy.
> > >
> > > Solving candlestick is half the key of a mystery in Revelation:
> > >
> > > 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which
> > > are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
> > >
> > > 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right
> > > hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are
> > > the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks
> > > which thou sawest are the seven churches.
> > >
> > > Is a candlestick the candle itself or the candle's receptacle?
> > > Websters: Candlestick: a cupped or spiked holder for a candle.
> > >
> > > Funny, I opened my oldest reference, Harper's Bible Dictionary,
> > > wherein the entry Candlestick said, See Lampstand. These past
> > > 20 years I've been trying to see the symbolic importance of a
> > > thing that supports an oil lamp, which in my mental image had
> > > deteriorated by now to approximately a bedside night-stand.
> > >
> > > But now I find the Candlestick of Rev. is Greek LYCHNOS, which
> > > I can now properly map to Lamp, which discussion indicates no
> > > candle at all, but for that age, a vessel with oil and a wick.
> > >
> > > Which might VN mean by candlestick?
> > >
> > > From my AF perspective, Aladdin's lamp is Aladdin himself.
> > > The djinn comes out of a bottle which is himself. Rather,
> > > he is intertwined with the bottle, like the vase my wife
> > > bought, that has a serpent passing through cracks in it.
> > > Depending what end's what, putting a lamp under a bushel
> > > resembles coitus, but the lamp on a lampstand his mouth.
> > >
> > > Yours truly,
> > > Glenn Scheper
> > > http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_scheper/
> > > glenn_scheper + at + earthlink.net
> > > Copyleft(!) Forward freely.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 09:10:12 -0700
> From: "sZ" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Swing Your Partner
>
> Someone else fell into the T-rap.
>
> I wonder if the inside of T's cheek ever gets raw and sore?
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:30:15 -0700
> From: Mary Krimmel <mary@krimmel.net>
> Subject: NPPR Line 143 a clockwork toy
>
> At 11:40 AM 9/27/03 -0400, you [Michael Joseph] wrote:
>
> ....Also trad symbol of one's life in time (burning one's candle at both
> ends = hastening the end of
> >one's life); life like a flame on a candle (nursery rhyme, for example,
> >"here comes a candle to light you to bed/Here comes a chopper to chop off
> >your head;" perhaps Jack jumping over the candlestick is another image
of
> >the atemporal, the flame jumping off the wick, as, for example, at the
end
> >of Katzenzakis's ODYSSEY: A MODERN SEQUEL; and famous line from Othello
> >"put out the light and then put out the light" or, alternately, "put out
> >the light and then put out her light");...
>
> And the famous half-line from Macbeth "Out, out, brief candle!".
>
> Thanks to Glenn Scheper for the Lychnos of Revelation. But Kinbote saw a
> candlestick, not a candle. There is no reason to suppose that Kinbote
meant
> "candle". Nor is there reason to suppose that VN meant "candle", although
> he may have (probably did) intend the word to suggest a candle, a light
> gone out, etc.
>
> ------------------------------
>>
> ------------------------------
>> ********************************
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to waste@waste.org
> with "unsubscribe pynchon-l-digest" in the message body.