Subject
Re: Zolushka/incest tale?
From
Date
Body
Stravinsky wanted his Oedipus, in his Oedipus Rex, to be sung by a
"slightly pederastic tenor".
Anthony Stadlen
"Oakleigh"
2A Alexandra Avenue
GB - London N22 7XE
Tel.: +44 (0) 20 8888 6857
For Existential Psychotherapy and Inner Circle Seminars see:
_http://anthonystadlen.blogspot.com_ (http://anthonystadlen.blogspot.com/)
In a message dated 03/08/2012 13:00:33 GMT Daylight Time, jansy@AETERN.US
writes:
Carolyn Kunin: "I hate to appear dense, but I cannot for the life of me
comprehend in what possible sense Zolushka (Cendrillon, Aschenbrodel, etsy
etsy etsy) are incest tales...But, Jansy if I may, I have no idea of what you
mean by the following, and how I could possibly have anything to do with
it. "I was happy when I read Carolyn Kunin's reference to "Speak, Nabokov"
because, in her commentary, she stressed Maar's non-idolatrous vertex and
the scope of his literary inter/intra-connections, favouring exciting inroads
into VN's works." By the way, I have on my bookshelves all the books you,
Jansy, reference - so perhaps I need to go back and re-read. But for the
sake of others who may not have Marina(!) Warner, Bettelheim and/or
Levi-Strauss, could you please be more specific. Also I fail to see any
homosexuality &/or pederasty in Hamlet or Oedipus Rex. Have I been missing something
obvious?"
Jansy Mello: I know that I criticized Maar's book in the past and for
various reasons. Although "over interpretation" is not exactly the word I need,
it comes close to my discomfort while reading Maar's misuse of the
traditional psychoanalytic theories when he wrote about what he understood to be
VN's inner life or motivations. However, I also recognize that his book
carries invaluable information and research.
I don't know why Carolyn attributes to me the theory that the
Cendrillon/Cinderella stories are particularly related to incest. Or why she denies
that there's homosexuality in the Oedipus cycle. Pederasty is not actually
present in Sophocles' "Oedipus Rex" (if I remember it right), but in what led
to King Laius's attempt to kill his son (due to the malediction thrown on
him by King Pelops, after he seduced his host's son, Chrysippus). Hamlet
(King Lear, as well*) were freudian examples of oedipal wishes in literature,
not of oedipal homosexual or pederast pre-history.
Levy-Strauss, in one of his articles in "Structural Anthropology," used
the Oedipus "myth" to illustrate some of his ideas (it was from him, in that
specific article, that I learned the meaning of the word "cthonic",
associated to a non-sexual kind of birth, as opposed to parental coupling). I
think its title was "The Symbolic Machine."
.........................................
* - Cf. Jane Smiley's "A Thousand Acres," or Lawrence Olivier's "King
Lear." Freud chose to write about Lear's three daughters, the moira, and
ancient fairy-stories, not about incest, though. Unfortunately most of these
articles and books were read a long long time ago and my recollections are
fragmentary..
_Google Search the archive_
(http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=site:listserv.ucsb.edu&HL=en) _Contact the Editors_
(mailto:nabokv-l@utk.edu,nabokv-l@holycross.edu) _Visit "Nabokov Online Journal"_
(http://www.nabokovonline.com/) _Visit Zembla_
(http://www.libraries.psu.edu/nabokov/zembla.htm) _View Nabokv-L Policies_ (http://web.utk.edu/~sblackwe/EDNote.htm)
_Manage subscription options_ (http://listserv.ucsb.edu/) _Visit AdaOnline_
(http://www.ada.auckland.ac.nz/) _View NSJ Ada Annotations_
(http://vnjapan.org/main/ada/index.html) _Temporary L-Soft Search the archive_
(https://listserv.ucsb.edu/lsv-cgi-bin/wa?A0=NABOKV-L&X=58B9943B29972AFF64&Y=nabokv-l@utk
.edu)
All private editorial communications are read by both co-editors.
Search archive with Google:
http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=site:listserv.ucsb.edu&HL=en
Contact the Editors: mailto:nabokv-l@utk.edu,nabokv-l@holycross.edu
Visit Zembla: http://www.libraries.psu.edu/nabokov/zembla.htm
View Nabokv-L policies: http://web.utk.edu/~sblackwe/EDNote.htm
Visit "Nabokov Online Journal:" http://www.nabokovonline.com
Manage subscription options: http://listserv.ucsb.edu/
"slightly pederastic tenor".
Anthony Stadlen
"Oakleigh"
2A Alexandra Avenue
GB - London N22 7XE
Tel.: +44 (0) 20 8888 6857
For Existential Psychotherapy and Inner Circle Seminars see:
_http://anthonystadlen.blogspot.com_ (http://anthonystadlen.blogspot.com/)
In a message dated 03/08/2012 13:00:33 GMT Daylight Time, jansy@AETERN.US
writes:
Carolyn Kunin: "I hate to appear dense, but I cannot for the life of me
comprehend in what possible sense Zolushka (Cendrillon, Aschenbrodel, etsy
etsy etsy) are incest tales...But, Jansy if I may, I have no idea of what you
mean by the following, and how I could possibly have anything to do with
it. "I was happy when I read Carolyn Kunin's reference to "Speak, Nabokov"
because, in her commentary, she stressed Maar's non-idolatrous vertex and
the scope of his literary inter/intra-connections, favouring exciting inroads
into VN's works." By the way, I have on my bookshelves all the books you,
Jansy, reference - so perhaps I need to go back and re-read. But for the
sake of others who may not have Marina(!) Warner, Bettelheim and/or
Levi-Strauss, could you please be more specific. Also I fail to see any
homosexuality &/or pederasty in Hamlet or Oedipus Rex. Have I been missing something
obvious?"
Jansy Mello: I know that I criticized Maar's book in the past and for
various reasons. Although "over interpretation" is not exactly the word I need,
it comes close to my discomfort while reading Maar's misuse of the
traditional psychoanalytic theories when he wrote about what he understood to be
VN's inner life or motivations. However, I also recognize that his book
carries invaluable information and research.
I don't know why Carolyn attributes to me the theory that the
Cendrillon/Cinderella stories are particularly related to incest. Or why she denies
that there's homosexuality in the Oedipus cycle. Pederasty is not actually
present in Sophocles' "Oedipus Rex" (if I remember it right), but in what led
to King Laius's attempt to kill his son (due to the malediction thrown on
him by King Pelops, after he seduced his host's son, Chrysippus). Hamlet
(King Lear, as well*) were freudian examples of oedipal wishes in literature,
not of oedipal homosexual or pederast pre-history.
Levy-Strauss, in one of his articles in "Structural Anthropology," used
the Oedipus "myth" to illustrate some of his ideas (it was from him, in that
specific article, that I learned the meaning of the word "cthonic",
associated to a non-sexual kind of birth, as opposed to parental coupling). I
think its title was "The Symbolic Machine."
.........................................
* - Cf. Jane Smiley's "A Thousand Acres," or Lawrence Olivier's "King
Lear." Freud chose to write about Lear's three daughters, the moira, and
ancient fairy-stories, not about incest, though. Unfortunately most of these
articles and books were read a long long time ago and my recollections are
fragmentary..
_Google Search the archive_
(http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=site:listserv.ucsb.edu&HL=en) _Contact the Editors_
(mailto:nabokv-l@utk.edu,nabokv-l@holycross.edu) _Visit "Nabokov Online Journal"_
(http://www.nabokovonline.com/) _Visit Zembla_
(http://www.libraries.psu.edu/nabokov/zembla.htm) _View Nabokv-L Policies_ (http://web.utk.edu/~sblackwe/EDNote.htm)
_Manage subscription options_ (http://listserv.ucsb.edu/) _Visit AdaOnline_
(http://www.ada.auckland.ac.nz/) _View NSJ Ada Annotations_
(http://vnjapan.org/main/ada/index.html) _Temporary L-Soft Search the archive_
(https://listserv.ucsb.edu/lsv-cgi-bin/wa?A0=NABOKV-L&X=58B9943B29972AFF64&Y=nabokv-l@utk
.edu)
All private editorial communications are read by both co-editors.
Search archive with Google:
http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=site:listserv.ucsb.edu&HL=en
Contact the Editors: mailto:nabokv-l@utk.edu,nabokv-l@holycross.edu
Visit Zembla: http://www.libraries.psu.edu/nabokov/zembla.htm
View Nabokv-L policies: http://web.utk.edu/~sblackwe/EDNote.htm
Visit "Nabokov Online Journal:" http://www.nabokovonline.com
Manage subscription options: http://listserv.ucsb.edu/